If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt insane.
i love it.
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt insane.
i love it.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is censorship caused by a threat to national security.
I keep thinking about joining some of these alternative social media, but I lack friends so there is not much of a point.
Dream Master wrote to MRO <=-
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books,
films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically
unacceptable, or a threat to security.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
Arelor wrote to Dream Master <=-
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
This is getting old.
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but
don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some
application of their ToS'.
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some application of their ToS'.
Dream Master wrote to Arelor <=-
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some application of their ToS'.
But it is. If you are inciting violence, you are in direct
violation of their ToS.
MRO wrote to All <=-
@MSGID: <6010E55A.2443.dove-gen@bbses.info>
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you
might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt insane.
i love it.
Come on man, at least try a LITTLE to get the facts. What the leftist
media is feeding you is...... garbage.
Here's a partial quote (the only part of his speech that day which is relevant to the events at the Capitol building:
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
That's an exact quote. You can fact-check that, and I hope you do.
Now tell me: How is that "inciting violence"?
Here's a partial quote (the only part of his speech that day which is relevant to the events at the Capitol building:
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
That's an exact quote. You can fact-check that, and I hope you do.
Now tell me: How is that "inciting violence"?
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
Here's a partial quote (the only part of his speech that day which is relevant to the events at the Capitol building:
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
That's an exact quote. You can fact-check that, and I hope you do.
Now tell me: How is that "inciting violence"?
Here you go...
No third-world countries would even attempt to do what we caught
them doing. And you'll hear about that in just a few minutes.
Republicans are, Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer
with his hands tied behind his back. It's like a boxer. And we
want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody,
including bad people. And we're going to have to fight much
harder.
And Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he
doesn't, that will be a, a sad day for our country because you're
sworn to uphold our Constitution.
Now, it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on
our democracy. And after this, we're going to walk down, and I'll
be there with you, we're going to walk down, we're going to walk
down.
Anyone you want, but I think right here, we're going to walk down
to the Capitol, and we're going to cheer on our brave senators
and congressmen and women, and we're probably not going to be
cheering so much for some of them.
Because you'll never take back our country with weakness. You
have to show strength and you have to be strong. We have come to
demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the
electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated.
I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the
Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices
heard.
Today we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity
of our elections. But whether or not they stand strong for our
country, our country. Our country has been under siege for a long
time. Far longer than this four-year period. We've set it on a
much greater course. So much, and we, I thought, you know, four
more years. I thought it would be easy.
... read the subtext because that's exactly what the
insurrectionists did ...
Al wrote to Gamgee <=-
Come on man, at least try a LITTLE to get the facts. What the leftist
media is feeding you is...... garbage.
Here's a partial quote (the only part of his speech that day which is relevant to the events at the Capitol building:
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
Trump also said you have to fight like hell, and if you don't
fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore.
here's a short video clip.
https://youtu.be/4-HRbNbdOTE
That's an exact quote. You can fact-check that, and I hope you do.
Now tell me: How is that "inciting violence"?
Rudy Giulianai also called for trial by combat before the
insurection.
It's no surprise the insurectionists did just that.
Re: GAB
By: MRO to All on Tue Jan 26 2021 10:00 pm
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you
might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt
insane.
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is censorship caused by a threat to national security.
Great. Have fun.
Re: GAB
By: MRO to All on Tue Jan 26 2021 10:00 pm
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you
might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt
insane.
i love it.
I keep thinking about joining some of these alternative social media, but I lack friends so there is not much of a point.
Re: GAB
By: Dream Master to MRO on Tue Jan 26 2021 11:49 pm
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
This is getting old.
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some application of their ToS'.
Re: GAB
By: Arelor to MRO on Wed Jan 27 2021 08:15 am
I keep thinking about joining some of these alternative social
media, but I lack friends so there is not much of a point.
Yeah, the reason I use Facebook is because I know many people who use it. I used to use MySpace years ago, before everyone moved to Facebook. If I don't know anyone who uses it, I don't think there's much of a point.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
ROTFLAO!!
That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever read. And I've read stuff by AOC so that says a lot.
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
@MSGID: <6011B7E1.20068.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <60118E49.2481.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
Dream Master wrote to Arelor <=-
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some application of their ToS'.
But it is. If you are inciting violence, you are in direct
violation of their ToS.
Have you actually read/listened to what Trump *ACTUALLY* *SAID*
regarding the crowd at the Capitol? If you're only watching CNN and
the like, you haven't, because they HAVE NOT PLAYED IT. Reason? They don't want you/us to hear what he actually said, because it clearly debunks the claim that he was "inciting violence".
Come on man, at least try a LITTLE to get the facts. What the leftist media is feeding you is...... garbage.
Here's a partial quote (the only part of his speech that day which is relevant to the events at the Capitol building:
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
That's an exact quote. You can fact-check that, and I hope you do.
Now tell me: How is that "inciting violence"?
Re: GAB
By: Arelor to Dream Master on Wed Jan 27 2021 08:17 am
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but
don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some
application of their ToS'.
But it is. If you are inciting violence, you are in direct violation of their ToS. Hell, my wife got banned on Facebook for 30 days because she told her best friend, "If you stop being my friend I'll kill you." The problem with Trump is that his posts were getting progressively fringe and
MRO wrote to All <=-
@MSGID: <6010E55A.2443.dove-gen@bbses.info>
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you
might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt
insane.
i love it.
I hear someone in America got fired, simply for using GAB! https://www.rt.com/usa/513737-literary-agency-fired-conservative-parler-ga b/
Biden needs to rein in this "Cancel culture", because the USA will further lose standing in the world stage. Countries where this type of oppression are a part of life, and this culture spread outwards are threats to out freedom.
Yeah, the reason I use Facebook is because I know many people who use it. I used to use MySpace years ago, before everyone moved to Facebook. If I don't know anyone who uses it, I don't think there's much of a point.
Re: GAB
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jan 27 2021 08:13 am
Yeah, the reason I use Facebook is because I know many people who
use it. I used to use MySpace years ago, before everyone moved to
Facebook. If I don't know anyone who uses it, I don't think there's
much of a point.
Someone reverse-engineered MySpace. Check out SpaceHey.com, I'm going to find a grainy 320x240 selfie and pretend it's 2001 again. :)
I'm not sure how to respond to someone with zero comprehension
(apparently) of the English language.
There is NOTHING in the above that is "inciting violence". Perhaps
you're not a native English speaker, I don't know. There are other
meanings to the word "fight" than what you seem to think.
I'll not respond further to you because there is no point in it.
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.
that's your own made up definition. that's not really what censorship means.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is censorship caused by a threat to national security.
i'm not talking about trump.
Great. Have fun.
thank you for your validation
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt insane.
i love it.
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
This is getting old.
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some application of their ToS'.
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books,
films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically
unacceptable, or a threat to security.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
ROTFLAO!!
That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever read. And I've read stuff by AOC so that says a lot.
But it is. If you are inciting violence, you are in direct
violation of their ToS.
Have you actually read/listened to what Trump *ACTUALLY* *SAID*
regarding the crowd at the Capitol? If you're only watching CNN and
the like, you haven't, because they HAVE NOT PLAYED IT. Reason? They don't want you/us to hear what he actually said, because it clearly debunks the claim that he was "inciting violence".
Come on man, at least try a LITTLE to get the facts. What the leftist media is feeding you is...... garbage.
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but
don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some
application of their ToS'.
also twitter and facebook let pedophiles run wild on their services.
The beauty of language is the subtleties of speech. If you've created a narrative, which Trump did, constructing the belief that the election was stolen, the "Deep State" was out to destroy America, and the only way to take back the "stolen election" was to head to the Capitol and intimidate our elected representatives, than Donald J. Trump successed.
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of
books, films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically
unacceptable, or a threat to security.
that's your own made up definition. that's not really what censorship
means.
Actually, that definition is taken directly from the Oxford English Dictionary. I chose not to cite the reference as I wanted to see a response similar to yours.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
i'm not talking about trump.
Whom, may I ask?
I keep thinking about joining some of these alternative
social media, but I lack friends so there is not much of a
point.
Yeah, the reason I use Facebook is because I know many
people who use it. I used to use MySpace years ago, before
everyone moved to Facebook. If I don't know anyone who uses
it, I don't think there's much of a point.
Trump also said you have to fight like hell, and if you don't
fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore.
There are many different meanings/nuances to the word "fight". But
you knew that.
Rudy Giulianai also called for trial by combat before the
insurection.
We're not talking about Rudy Giuliani.
I'll tell you the same thing I told the other guy - I'll not respond further to you, because you've already got your mind made up,
regardless of any facts presented to you, and will not change. It's a waste of my time to bother with you.
Re: GAB
By: Arelor to Dream Master on Wed Jan 27 2021 08:17 am
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due
some application of their ToS'.
But it is. If you are inciting violence, you are in direct violation of their ToS. Hell, my wife got banned on Facebook fo
30 days because she told her best friend, "If you stop being my friend I'll kill you." The problem with Trump is that his
posts were getting progressively fringe and were causing a significant stir.
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
Come on man, at least try a LITTLE to get the facts. What the leftist media is feeding you is...... garbage.
Here's a partial quote (the only part of his speech that day which is relevant to the events at the Capitol building:
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your
voices heard."
Trump also said you have to fight like hell, and if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore.
here's a short video clip.
https://youtu.be/4-HRbNbdOTE
Re: Re: GAB
By: Gamgee to Dream Master on Wed Jan 27 2021 12:52 pm
Here's a partial quote (the only part of his speech that day which is relevant to the events at the Capitol building:
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your
voices heard."
That's an exact quote. You can fact-check that, and I hope you do.
Now tell me: How is that "inciting violence"?
Here you go...
then when something sucks, i post that it sucks and people call me a bot, a nazi or a racist. this is usually about that
Re: GAB
By: Dream Master to Arelor on Wed Jan 27 2021 09:01 am
Re: GAB
By: Arelor to Dream Master on Wed Jan 27 2021 08:17 am
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but
don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some
application of their ToS'.
But it is. If you are inciting violence, you are in direct violation of their ToS. Hell, my wife got banned on Facebook
for 30 days because she told her best friend, "If you stop being my friend I'll kill you." The problem with Trump is th
his posts were getting progressively fringe and
their terms of service encompass anything and everything. i got banned for saying 'i don't care for it' in regards to a tv
show. i even have a screenshot of it.
fuck facebook and people that think what facebook is doing is every right. facebook is an evil company ran by evil people.
I'm looking for a Twatter replacement, Parler got shut down by the big tech Commies, and I got rid of my twatter account and
Amazon account.
I'm working on getting rid of Google as well.
Twatter has lost 5 billion so far :)
You can use alternate search engines, email services, and refrain yourself f using Youtube. However, if you use an Android phone you need to register wit them and you are pretty much tied to their ecosystem. The alternative is App which is not my kind of poison either. You can purchase a cheap 2nd hand pho and flash it, load firmware without Google code in it, and call it a day. It makes a hell of a lot of a difference - seriously, compare the tcpdumps from android phone and a LineageOs phone. However, you lose access to a lot of applications that expect a Google stack installed, including banking and popular messaging.
Yet UGT or CCOO members don't get banned... so I am not buying the excuse that Trump got banned because of that.
I keep thinking about joining some of these alternative social media,
but I lack friends so there is not much of a point.
Denn wrote to MRO <=-
I'm looking for a Twatter replacement, Parler got shut down by the big tech Commies, and I got rid of my twatter account and my Amazon
account.
Denn wrote to Dream Master <=-
Ok so Antifa used twitter and facebook to carry out the destruction of several cities last year, Why arent they being censored?
Ogg wrote to Nightfox <=-
There is a growing group of sysops hopping onto Telegram. :D
The desktop app is very nice to use.
There is even a way to send to netmail addresses and receive
replies. More info can be found in the fidonet FIDONET.TELEGRAM
echo. ;)
I never had a Twitter account. I had a Facebook account some time ago, in order to get my books promoted, but I ended up deleting it because it didn't work for me. It was more profitable to just leg it to events and promote my books personally.
Google is a harder beast to dodge.
Yet UGT or CCOO members don't get banned... so I am not buying the
excuse that Trump got banned because of that.
Banned from various social media sites you mean? That was because of his lies and misinformation.
He was impeached because he incited a insurrection.
If find it odd I would be thinking this or typing those words here and now, but as Donald Trump would say "it is what it is".
Someone reverse-engineered MySpace. Check out SpaceHey.com, I'm going to find a grainy 320x240 selfie and pretend it's 2001 again. :)
It worries me that the rest of the Western world (including Australia) takes its cultural cues from the US. I definately don't want such action normalised.
Biden needs to rein in this "Cancel culture", because the USA will further lose standing in the world stage. Countries where this type of oppression are a part of life, and this culture spread outwards are threats to out freedom.
i just want a place to post funny pictures and baby videos to my friends. too man psychotic deranged people nowadays.
Biden needs to rein in this "Cancel culture", because the USA will further lose
standing in the world stage. Countries where this type of oppression are a >part of life, and this culture spread outwards are threats to out freedom.
Re: GAB
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jan 27 2021 08:13 am
I keep thinking about joining some of these alternative social media, but I lack friends so there is not much of a point.
Make more friends in BBS land and you won't need alternative social media. That's my view anyway. ;-)
You want lies and mis information look at the 3 & 1/2 year Russia Hoax.
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of
books, films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically
unacceptable, or a threat to security.
that's your own made up definition. that's not really what censorship
means.
Actually, that definition is taken directly from the Oxford English Dictionary. I chose not to cite the reference as I wanted to see a response similar to yours.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
i'm not talking about trump.
Whom, may I ask?
Re: GAB
By: MRO to All on Tue Jan 26 2021 10:00 pm
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you
might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt
insane.
i love it.
I'm looking for a Twatter replacement, Parler got shut down by the big tech Commies, and I got rid of my twatter account and my Amazon account. I'm working on getting rid of Google as well.
Twatter has lost 5 billion so far :)
Re: GAB
By: Dream Master to MRO on Tue Jan 26 2021 11:49 pm
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books,
films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically
unacceptable, or a threat to security.
Ok so Antifa used twitter and facebook to carry out the destruction of several cities last year, Why arent they being censored?
Oh that's right because they are extreme leftist's
Twitter and Facbook are losing millions of people world wide because of the double standards.
Re: GAB
By: MRO to Arelor on Wed Jan 27 2021 09:08 pm
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but
don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some
application of their ToS'.
also twitter and facebook let pedophiles run wild on their
services.
Also twitter is a Porn medium.
and there are no age checks for all the porn they serve, never hear anyone say anything about @jack for having porn that children can access.
13 million more votes than there were registered voters, Republicans not being allowed to Observe even though law permits them to.
Dates on ballots being changed to be counted when legally they should not have been.
Ballot Dumps in the middle of the night in key battleground states that were 95% for Biden.
"Come on man" you just follow your party bullshit hook line and sinker without looking at facts.
i'm not talking about trump.
Whom, may I ask?
If you read his original message he was talking about GAB as an alternative social media.
There is a growing group of sysops hopping onto Telegram. :D
The desktop app is very nice to use.
All the english-speaking groups are private, so you have to ask
to join.
There is even a way to send to netmail addresses and receive
replies. More info can be found in the fidonet FIDONET.TELEGRAM
echo. ;)
That argument only flies if you think Trump has being inciting violence.
Last posts before he got banned from Twitter were asking people to be peaceful and to cooperate with the authorities.
Meanwhile I know people who posts that the want to smash white heterosexual male's mouths against the sidewalk and they get temporary bans.
Re: GAB
By: MRO to Arelor on Wed Jan 27 2021 09:07 pm
then when something sucks, i post that it sucks and people call me a
bot, a nazi or a racist. this is usually about that
Well, if they think you are a bot, what are they talking to you? :-) Comes to show how retarded people can get.
Re: GAB
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jan 27 2021 08:13 am
I keep thinking about joining some of these alternative social
media, but I lack friends so there is not much of a point.
Make more friends in BBS land and you won't need alternative social media. That's my view anyway. ;-)
People sometimes boycott a company if the company is doing something they don't agree with. People have done that for a long time, but I suppose this cancel culture is getting a bit out of hand. I've also heard of instances where a hiring manager at a company might check for any political bumper stickers on a candidate's car and if they have anything
Re: GAB
By: MRO to Arelor on Wed Jan 27 2021 09:07 pm
i just want a place to post funny pictures and baby videos to my
friends. too man psychotic deranged people nowadays.
You can still do that. People still do that on Facebook.
Biden needs to rein in this "Cancel culture", because the USA willlose
further
standing in the world stage. Countries where this type of oppression
are a part of life, and this culture spread outwards are threats to out
freedom.
As a US citizen I agree 100%. If our culture continues down this road, other countries who value their freedom had better be using us only as an example of what NOT to do.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is censorship caused by a threat to national security.
these liberal haters are going to get worse and worse as joe biden fucks up ruins the country more and more. they will run out of excuses. i dont know much denial they can exert on themselves.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60122D6A.2461.dove-gen@bbses.info>
@REPLY: <6011D46B.47929.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to MRO on Wed Jan 27 2021 08:58 pm
MRO wrote to All <=-
@MSGID: <6010E55A.2443.dove-gen@bbses.info>
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you
might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt
insane.
i love it.
I hear someone in America got fired, simply for using GAB! https://www.rt.com/usa/513737-literary-agency-fired-conservative-parler-ga b/
yeah it's nuts. parler and gab arent what the media made them out to
be. they're quite boring. it's just a big target because conservatives use it.
i like it because they allow free speech. they allow anything but
illegal activity.
Biden needs to rein in this "Cancel culture", because the USA will further lose standing in the world stage. Countries where this type of oppression are a part of life, and this culture spread outwards are threats to out freedom.
biden can't do anything.
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
@MSGID: <60124155.2499.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
@REPLY: <60121DE4.20073.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Gamgee to Dream Master on
Wed Jan 27 2021 08:00 pm
I'm not sure how to respond to someone with zero comprehension
(apparently) of the English language.
Guess what major I had in college? Let me help you: English.
There is NOTHING in the above that is "inciting violence". Perhaps
you're not a native English speaker, I don't know. There are other
meanings to the word "fight" than what you seem to think.
The beauty of language is the subtleties of speech. If you've created
a narrative, which Trump did, constructing the belief that the election was stolen, the "Deep State" was out to destroy America, and the only
way to take back the "stolen election" was to head to the Capitol and intimidate our elected representatives, than Donald J. Trump successed.
These people would die for Trump. They adhere to his every word. He could say the Democrats are trying to poison the water supply and the
only way to survive is to drink Evian water. They'd go out and grab
every bottle of Evian ensuring their safety through the Democrat
onslaught of America's patriots. (Evian would make a killing, which he would prepare them for.)
Remember, subtlety is the key and Trump is the king of it. He knows
how to construct a narrative that his followers would consume. Not
only that, Trump has his cronies that help with it. What have you
done? You eat it up.
I'll not respond further to you because there is no point in it.
Excellent. When you're ready to jump into the deep end, let me know. Debating people who only make baseless arguments are easy fodder.
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
@MSGID: <60121DE4.20073.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6011E283.2488.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
Here's a partial quote (the only part of his speech that day which is relevant to the events at the Capitol building:
"I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."
That's an exact quote. You can fact-check that, and I hope you do.
Now tell me: How is that "inciting violence"?
Here you go...
No third-world countries would even attempt to do what we caught
them doing. And you'll hear about that in just a few minutes.
Republicans are, Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer
with his hands tied behind his back. It's like a boxer. And we
want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody,
including bad people. And we're going to have to fight much
harder.
And Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he
doesn't, that will be a, a sad day for our country because you're
sworn to uphold our Constitution.
Now, it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on
our democracy. And after this, we're going to walk down, and I'll
be there with you, we're going to walk down, we're going to walk
down.
Anyone you want, but I think right here, we're going to walk down
to the Capitol, and we're going to cheer on our brave senators
and congressmen and women, and we're probably not going to be
cheering so much for some of them.
Because you'll never take back our country with weakness. You
have to show strength and you have to be strong. We have come to
demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the
electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated.
I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the
Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices
heard.
Today we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity
of our elections. But whether or not they stand strong for our
country, our country. Our country has been under siege for a long
time. Far longer than this four-year period. We've set it on a
much greater course. So much, and we, I thought, you know, four
more years. I thought it would be easy.
... read the subtext because that's exactly what the
insurrectionists did ...
I'm not sure how to respond to someone with zero comprehension (apparently) of the English language.
There is NOTHING in the above that is "inciting violence". Perhaps
you're not a native English speaker, I don't know. There are other meanings to the word "fight" than what you seem to think.
I'll not respond further to you because there is no point in it.
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6012E2D5.57372.dove_dove-gen@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6011D46B.47929.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to MRO on Wed
Jan 27 2021 08:58 pm
It worries me that the rest of the Western world (including Australia) takes its cultural cues from the US. I definately don't want such action normalised.
Biden needs to rein in this "Cancel culture", because the USA will further lose standing in the world stage. Countries where this type of oppression are a part of life, and this culture spread outwards are threats to out freedom.
People sometimes boycott a company if the company is doing something
they don't agree with. People have done that for a long time, but I suppose this cancel culture is getting a bit out of hand. I've also
heard of instances where a hiring manager at a company might check for
any political bumper stickers on a candidate's car and if they have anything with the "wrong" political party, they won't be hired.
Dumas Walker wrote to BORAXMAN <=-
@MSGID: <601306B7.51641.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <6011D46B.47929.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Biden needs to rein in this "Cancel culture", because the USA will further lose
standing in the world stage. Countries where this type of oppression are a
part of life, and this culture spread outwards are threats to out freedom.
As a US citizen I agree 100%. If our culture continues down this road, other countries who value their freedom had better be using us only as
an example of what NOT to do.
these liberal haters are going to get worse and worse as joe biden
fucks up ruins the country more and more. they will run out of
excuses. i dont know much denial they can exert on themselves.
but ... but ... Biden promised to "fix" America ;-)
biden can't do anything.
He can't do much, but he could speak up against it. If he were serious about healing, he would advocate for dialogue, tolerance and diversity. That we should accept diversity of political and cultural opinion and have an inclusive society where we learn to work and live alongside those different to us.
have anything with the "wrong" political party, they won't be hired.
That should be illegal, it probably already is. At least in Autralia, it is.
Conservatives have shot themselves in the foot, because they constantly argued "muh private property", and now the system they love doesn't support them, the way they assumed it would.
Such a train wreck...
an example of what NOT to do.
In my own personal opinion, I already view the US as an oligarchy teetering close to becoming an authoritarian state. It is very clear authoritarians are siezing power, and most are not aware of it. I used to view the US as the bearer of freedom, now sadly, I'm hoping (in vain), for another suitable power to knock you guys off your perch. There isn't one though.
that's your own made up definition. that's not really what
censorship means.
Actually, that definition is taken directly from the Oxford English
Dictionary. I chose not to cite the reference as I wanted to see a
response similar to yours.
well i disagree with it. censorship is the suppression of something by someone in charge. doesn't matter what the reason is. it's an act.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
i'm not talking about trump.
Whom, may I ask?
guess you're not paying attention to whats going on with censorship on
we are all roped in. it started out with 'free' stuff, nice and slow.
now they fucking got us. these services have access to our banks, to every little thing we do. he was talking about credit karma too. those fuckers make a lot of money tracking everything about people that use it.
we are so stupid. we need to regulate these companies. just a small portion of people leaving google, facebook, twitter, etc isnt enough.
i'm guilty of it too. i should get rid of my gmail accounts. i just use it because it's so easy and linked to everything. that's how they got you.
louis farrakhan. that fucker is using it freely. we have had political figures issue threats of war and death threats and they still use twitter.
also twitter and facebook let pedophiles run wild on their
services.
Also twitter is a Porn medium.
and there are no age checks for all the porn they serve, never
hear anyone say anything about @jack for having porn that children
can access.
yeah, tumblr was real huge with that.
i heard something on the radio about those laws that were made to protect websites. a lot of these social media sites claimed to be entirely neutral and they felt they shouldnt be prosecuted for their content.
also us postal selling ballots to people and falsely date stamping ballots. i'm still pissed off about someone voting for me. i wish i could catch them.
i'm not talking about trump.
Whom, may I ask?
If you read his original message he was talking about GAB as an
alternative social media.
people with TDS only see the orange man
build back better!
There is even a way to send to netmail addresses and
receive replies. More info can be found in the fidonet
FIDONET.TELEGRAM echo. ;)
I should try the desktop app; reading Fidonet on my phone,
where I use Telegram the most, is a little off-putting.
seriously, compare the tcpdumps from an android phone and a
LineageOs phone. However, you lose access to a lot of
applications that expect a Google stack installed, including
banking and popular messaging.
I was completely Google free until banks here started
pushing you to use a smartphone with a Google stack in order
to use their online services. There is this push from
unrelated corpos trying you to get on board with Google or
Apple. It is scary.
Make more friends in BBS land and you won't need
alternative social media. That's my view anyway. ;-)
haha, well, in my view, social media is more for dealing
with people you already know. BBS strikes more like a forum.
You go in there hoping to find people with similar interests
so you can have discusions about them.
just randomly today i was watching joe rogan at work and he
had mtv's adam curry aka THE HAIR. he's a genius by the
way... anyways, he was talking about all the shit that is
going on with the internet and how they track you and own
your information. he uses a flip phone with an OS and apps
that don't track you.
we are all roped in. it started out with 'free' stuff, nice
and slow. now they fucking got us. these services have
access to our banks, to every little thing we do. he was
talking about credit karma too. those fuckers make a lot of
money tracking everything about people that use it.
we are so stupid. we need to regulate these companies. just
a small portion of people leaving google, facebook, twitter,
etc isnt enough.
i'm guilty of it too. i should get rid of my gmail accounts.
i just use it because it's so easy and linked to everything.
that's how they got you.
Denn wrote to MRO <=-
I'm looking for a Twatter replacement, Parler got shut down by the big tech Commies, and I got rid of my twatter accoun
and my Amazon
account.
Some of the Fediverse systems have a feed like Twitter, but the problem is the user Catch-22. Without users, there's no impetus to join/contribute, which means there's less content for others to want to read.
I was involved in Identi.ca/status.net, I'm on a drinking basis with the founders. It was nice having a group of people on
non-commercial social network to hang out with; especially since they are old BBS friends. We've been playing recently wit
Keybase and Signal groups to connect.
poindexter fortran | pfortran at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet
... The neuroanatomy of fear and faith share common afferent pathways.
Google is a harder beast to dodge.
That's so true, I do however use Firefox with Duck duck go about half the time.
People sometimes boycott a company if the company is doing something they don't agree with. People have done that for a long time, but I suppose this cancel culture is getting a bit out o
hand. I've also
heard of instances where a hiring manager at a company might check for any political bumper stickers on a candidate's car and if they have anything with the "wrong" political party, they won
be hired.
That should be illegal, it probably already is. At least in Autralia, it is.
Conservatives have shot themselves in the foot, because they constantly argued "muh private property", and now the system th
love doesn't support them, the way they assumed it would.
Such a train wreck...
seriously, compare the tcpdumps from an android phone and a
LineageOs phone. However, you lose access to a lot of
applications that expect a Google stack installed, including
banking and popular messaging.
I was completely Google free until banks here started
pushing you to use a smartphone with a Google stack in order
to use their online services. There is this push from
unrelated corpos trying you to get on board with Google or
Apple. It is scary.
I never heard of the term "google stack" before. I see that it
is generally the collection of Google apps out there.
But why would a bank require you to have any of the apps that
are part of a google stack? Anything associated with Google
doesn't emote privacy or security - two things that I would want
with banking.
The main difference is that social media is synomymous to
"devices" (smartphones, tablets) - and short replies or comments
- whereas BBSes are typically associated with PCs (desktops,
laptops) - and actual conversations.
fb is a monopoly and they have gone too far. they need to get reigned in
build back better!
That was a lame slogan, just what the hell does that mean Lol.
I never heard of the term "google stack" before. I see that it
is generally the collection of Google apps out there.
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-
trump said to go there and fight. cheer for the good representatives
and maybe dont cheer for the bad ones. that's not inciting a riot.
these liberal haters are going to get worse and worse as joe biden
fucks up and ruins the country more and more. they will run out of excuses. i dont know how much denial they can exert on themselves. ---
Even then, if you look into Firefox' hood, it gets scary.
build back better!
That was a lame slogan, just what the hell does that mean Lol.
To rebuild better than it was before..
I'm not worried about that so much, Using the right search engine is more important, I also have been using Duck Duck go with chrome.
I think he reads the Newyork times and watches CNN all day.
https://www.joecheated.com/
https://www.drewberquist.com/2020/12/new-study-shows-how-democrats-beat-tr ump-t hey-cheated/
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Denn on Thu Jan 28 2021 04:46 pm
also us postal selling ballots to people and falsely date stamping
ballots. i'm still pissed off about someone voting for me. i wish i
could catch them.
especially if they voted for Biden in your name.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to HusTler on Thu Jan 28 2021 10:19 pm
build back better!
That was a lame slogan, just what the hell does that mean Lol.
The social media FB place is not much different than a BBS.
People (mostly strangers) post comments about other people's
posts, and you can post replies in return - that's the same
thing as in a BBS message area.
Hello Mro!
** On Thursday 28.01.21 - 16:38, MRO wrote to Denn:
just randomly today i was watching joe rogan at work and he
had mtv's adam curry aka THE HAIR. he's a genius by the
way... anyways, he was talking about all the shit that is
going on with the internet and how they track you and own
your information. he uses a flip phone with an OS and apps
that don't track you.
Who's using the flip-phone - Joe? or the guest?
Re: GAB
By: Ogg to Arelor on Thu Jan 28 2021 10:59 pm
The main difference is that social media is synomymous to
"devices" (smartphones, tablets) - and short replies or comments
- whereas BBSes are typically associated with PCs (desktops,
laptops) - and actual conversations.
Agreed. With device, people are more familiar with short replies, truncated text, and improperly thought out messages. BBSes require a little more effort, have more thought out message, and tend to bring about conversations.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Boraxman on Thu Jan 28 2021 10:23 pm
fb is a monopoly and they have gone too far. they need to get
reigned in
There are alternatives to Facebook. You pointed out one just the other day, and MySpace is still around. So there are other social networks people can use. Nobody is forcing people to use Facebook. They aren't a monopoly.
Re: Re: GAB
By: Denn to MRO on Thu Jan 28 2021 10:39 pm
build back better!
That was a lame slogan, just what the hell does that mean Lol.
To rebuild better than it was before..
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Boraxman on Thu Jan 28 2021 10:23 pm
fb is a monopoly and they have gone too far. they need to get reigned i
There are alternatives to Facebook. You pointed out one just the other day, and MySpace is still around. So there are other social networks people can use. Nobody is forcing people to use Facebook. They aren't a monopoly.
Nightfox
Re: GAB
By: Denn to Arelor on Fri Jan 29 2021 11:43 am
I'm not worried about that so much, Using the right search engine is mo important, I also have been using Duck Duck go with chrome.
Do you like Duck Duck Go? Sometimes I seem to get better search results wit Google than with Duck Duck Go.
Nightfox
As a US citizen I agree 100%. If our culture continues down this road, >DW> other countries who value their freedom had better be using us only as an >DW> example of what NOT to do.
this is all heading towards the chinese social credit score thing.
In my own personal opinion, I already view the US as an oligarchy teetering >close to becoming an authoritarian state. It is very clear authoritarians are >siezing power, and most are not aware of it. I used to view the US as the >bearer of freedom, now sadly, I'm hoping (in vain), for another suitable power >to knock you guys off your perch. There isn't one though.
Nightfox
Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain. You become an outcast.
People does not believe this until they try. If you are not in they just don't bother sending messages to you unless they really, really, really need you.
As a US citizen I agree 100%. If our culture continues down thisroad, DW> other countries who value their freedom had better be using
us only as an DW> example of what NOT to do.
this is all heading towards the chinese social credit score thing.
I am not 100% on what that is, but it does not sound good.
trump said to go there and fight. cheer for the good representatives and maybe dont cheer for the bad ones. that's not inciting a riot.
No. That's "exercising your first amendment rights" as the left has done many times.
these liberal haters are going to get worse and worse as joe biden fucks up and ruins the country more and more. they will run out of excuses. i dont know how much denial they can exert on themselves. ---
They live in a constant state of denial. They deny basic human nature.
They will always deny that their ideas are bad and that the reason their ideas are failing is because of <some lame excuse>.
Do you like Duck Duck Go? Sometimes I seem to get better search results with Google than with Duck Duck Go.
I think he reads the Newyork times and watches CNN all day.
https://www.joecheated.com/
https://www.drewberquist.com/2020/12/new-study-shows-how-democrats-b
eat-tr ump-t hey-cheated/
omg but there's no proof!
oh one thing i forgot is my coworker got a handful of ballots in his mailbox. totally NOT a mailman mistake. totally different streets and names. he's a democrat but didnt like it. he asked his mailman and he said he knew nothing.
The social media FB place is not much different than a BBS.
People (mostly strangers) post comments about other people's
posts, and you can post replies in return - that's the same
thing as in a BBS message area.
well bbses arent monitoring what you are doing on websites and using your info against your knowledge. and when i call nighfox autistic i dont get a
just randomly today i was watching joe rogan at work and
he had mtv's adam curry aka THE HAIR. he's a genius..
Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain. You become an outcast.
Being whatsappless has costed me at least one employment
opportunity.
So yeah you may not use Whatsapp in Spain but you are pretty
much excluding yourself from social comunication by not
being in.
Social change, he failed but succeeded if you were white.
Hello Arelor!
** On Friday 29.01.21 - 17:39, Arelor wrote to Nightfox:
Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain. You become an outcast.
[snip]
Being whatsappless has costed me at least one employment
opportunity.
So yeah you may not use Whatsapp in Spain but you are pretty
much excluding yourself from social comunication by not
being in.
So.. why not jump "in" for the sake of business? You don't have
to participate on a personal open-book level. You could limit
its use as a business tool.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60138DB0.2530.dove-gen@bbses.info>
@REPLY: <601337FE.48000.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Thu Jan 28 2021 10:11 pm
have anything with the "wrong" political party, they won't be hired.
That should be illegal, it probably already is. At least in Autralia, it is.
Conservatives have shot themselves in the foot, because they constantly argued "muh private property", and now the system they love doesn't support them, the way they assumed it would.
Such a train wreck...
well that doesnt really apply to facebook and twitter. they've been in the courts before and lost over their actions. they also have laws protecting them in regards to what their users post. cant have it
both ways.
fb is a monopoly and they have gone too far. they need to get reigned
in and have a good slap. ---
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-sup
@MSGID: <6013DAC0.20179.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <601337FE.48000.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on
Thu Jan 28 2021 10:11 pm
People sometimes boycott a company if the company is doing something they don't agree with. People have done that for a long time, but I
pose this cancel culture is getting a bit out oanyt
hand. I've also
heard of instances where a hiring manager at a company might check for any political bumper stickers on a candidate's car and if they have
hing with the "wrong" political party, they wonis.
be hired.
That should be illegal, it probably already is. At least in Autralia, it
Conservatives have shot themselves in the foot, because they constantlyargue
d "muh private property", and now the system th
love doesn't support them, the way they assumed it would.
Such a train wreck...
Actually, I think the issue is they have comitted the mistake of
trading with their enemies, while their enemies refused to trade with them, because it is the easy thign to do.
Pretty much like when you are playing Brass, and you need to ship
cotton overseas but have no port to do so. You end up hiring some other player's port instead because it is easier than building your own port. The problem is that by doing so you provide a shitload of points and
money to the other player.
Now, if the other player then used that money to buy stuff from you, it would be ok. You are both opponents, but you are benefitting each
other. However, what I find in a lot of games is that Jack hires Rich's ports, and Rich hire Danniel's mining facilities, and Danniel hires
Rich's ports. So Rich keeps getting richer, Danniel keeps getting
richer, and Jack is just making his enemies stronger because it is
cheaper (short term) to give more power to your enemies than to put
your empire together.
Bottom line:
Don't trade with people that is going to use the resources you give to them to crush you.
Arelor wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I have good success with Signal. Nobody wanted to jump in but I
rejected any mainstream solution for my personal messaging altogether,
so finally the people who needs to be able to message me had to jump
into Signal.
Mantrid wrote to Arelor <=-
yeah I'bve been running lineageOS for years (The only way to get
updates on a 2015 phone that i refuse to replace until it breaks...)
Denn wrote to Al <=-
He did NOT incite an insurrection, he made it very clear that we have
the right to peacefully protest and he pushed the peaceful protest
aspect.
HusTler wrote to MRO <=-
but ... but ... Biden promised to "fix" America ;-)
Denn wrote to MRO <=-
build back better!
That was a lame slogan, just what the hell does that mean Lol.
Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-
I never heard of the term "google stack" before. I see that it
is generally the collection of Google apps out there.
But why would a bank require you to have any of the apps that
are part of a google stack? Anything associated with Google
doesn't emote privacy or security - two things that I would want
with banking.
I was perfectly happy with the last app that my bank was using.
It cooperated quite nicely on my iPod over wifi. But then they
changed the version of the app the service nolonger worked for
the iPod at all. That was about 8 years ago. It's like they are
saying unless you have the latest and greatest smartphone, you
can't bank with us.
Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-
The social media FB place is not much different than a BBS.
People (mostly strangers) post comments about other people's
posts, and you can post replies in return - that's the same
thing as in a BBS message area.
The main difference is that social media is synomymous to
"devices" (smartphones, tablets) - and short replies or comments
- whereas BBSes are typically associated with PCs (desktops,
laptops) - and actual conversations.
Ogg wrote to MRO <=-
just randomly today i was watching joe rogan at work and he
had mtv's adam curry aka THE HAIR. he's a genius by the
way... anyways, he was talking about all the shit that is
going on with the internet and how they track you and own
your information. he uses a flip phone with an OS and apps
that don't track you.
Who's using the flip-phone - Joe? or the guest?
Sounds like a good episode to hear. I enjoyed the one with
Moxie Marlinspike (the guy who built Signal).
we are all roped in. it started out with 'free' stuff, nice
and slow. now they fucking got us. these services have
access to our banks, to every little thing we do. he was
talking about credit karma too. those fuckers make a lot of
money tracking everything about people that use it.
The banking activity still seems separated enough to me. Unless
the app uses the device's temporary cache in a sloppy way and
allows another app to look at it, there is techically no way a
3rd party would know what your banking activity is like.
But.. the public has been roped in - gradually - for the sake of
"free stuff" and convenience.
we are so stupid. we need to regulate these companies. just
a small portion of people leaving google, facebook, twitter,
etc isnt enough.
Isn't there a movement founded by Tim Berners-Lee (the guy who
built and released the first www software):
"On 30 September 2018, Berners-Lee announced his new open-source
startup Inrupt to fuel a commercial ecosystem around the Solid
project, which aims to give users more control over their
personal data and lets users choose where the data goes, who's
allowed to see certain elements and which apps are allowed to
see that data."
i'm guilty of it too. i should get rid of my gmail accounts.
i just use it because it's so easy and linked to everything.
that's how they got you.
I'm not ready to abandon the variety of google apps, but I
wouldn't use them for anything that I wouldn't share to total
strangers. But it's hard to control. I can share a link to a
set of photos in google pics to a specific person, but then that
person can turn around and send that link to anyone else.
--- OpenXP 5.0.48
* Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
Bottom line:
Don't trade with people that is going to use the resources you give to them to crush you.
Dream Master wrote to Ogg <=-
Agreed. With device, people are more familiar with short replies, truncated text, and improperly thought out messages. BBSes require a little more effort, have more thought out message, and tend to bring
about conversations.
Arelor wrote to Nightfox <=-
So yeah you may not use Whatsapp in Spain but you are pretty much excluding yourself from social comunication by not being in.
Whatsapp belongs to Facebook, so the corollary is you cannot escape Facebook without massive social costs.
Ogg wrote to MRO <=-
I think Rogan's interviews need to be shorter. 3 hours is too
long in one sitting.
Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-
The way I look at it is if a vast majority of the population is
using Whatsapp as their communication tool, they are probably
expecting to reach their merchant of interest that way too - not
just their friends.
well bbses arent monitoring what you are doing on websites
and using your info against your knowledge. and when i
call nighfox autistic i dont get a
I got baned on twitter because I said "I wonder what would
happen if I called someone retarded" a few minutes later I
was banned. here is twitters mission statement.
The mission we serve as Twitter, Inc. is to give everyone
the power to create and share ideas and information
instantly without barriers.
Our business and revenue will always follow that mission in
ways that improve - and do not detract from - a free and
global conversation.
I guess they failed, since they suppress one group and let another group plot their tyranny.
I would love to see a phone with a sandbox. A phone-within-a-phone, if you will. Run your personal android phone and have Android running in a chroot jail to put your work apps in. Or, social media and banking. Or personal apps on a work phone. And so on.
Arelor wrote to Nightfox <=-
So yeah you may not use Whatsapp in Spain but you are pretty much excluding yourself from social comunication by not being in.
Whatsapp belongs to Facebook, so the corollary is you cannot escape Facebook without massive social costs.
That's a shame. I was interested to hear of the rise in Signal users after FB forced WhatsApp users to adopt the Facebook Terms of Service.
Dream Master wrote to MRO <=-
Re: GAB
By: MRO to All on Tue Jan 26 2021 10:00 pm
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt insane.
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books,
films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically
unacceptable, or a threat to security.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
i love it.
Great. Have fun.
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
---
= Synchronet = Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
Dr. What wrote to Dream Master <=-
Dream Master wrote to MRO <=-
Censorship is the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books,
films, news, etc., that are considered obscene, politically
unacceptable, or a threat to security.
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is
censorship caused by a threat to national security.
ROTFLAO!!
That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever read. And I've read stuff
by AOC so that says a lot.
Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain. You become an outcast.
People does not believe this until they try. If you are not in they just don't bother sending messages to you unless they really, really, really need you.
Being whatsappless has costed me at least one employment opportunity.
Whatsapp belongs to Facebook, so the corollary is you cannot escape Facebook without massive social costs.
People does not believe this until they try. If you are not in they
just don't bother sending messages to you unless they really,
really, really need you.
yeah i notice a lot of recruiters use whatsapp
Hello Mro!
** On Friday 29.01.21 - 17:20, MRO wrote to Ogg:
just randomly today i was watching joe rogan at work and
he had mtv's adam curry aka THE HAIR. he's a genius..
Is that episode #1436 ?
I think Rogan's interviews need to be shorter. 3 hours is too
long in one sitting.
Mantrid wrote to Arelor <=-
yeah I'bve been running lineageOS for years (The only way to get
updates on a 2015 phone that i refuse to replace until it breaks...)
My favorite phone, ever was a Samsung SIII. I loved the size, and when AT&T stopped updating it, I went to CyanogenMod and later LineageOS. The last developer with an SIII finally gave up a while ago, and updates stopped coming. That was the only reason I switched.
yeah i notice a lot of recruiters use whatsapp
I've used WhatsApp but have never been contacted by a recruiter on it.
One thing I find odd (for some reason) is some job recruiters are now sending text messages. Usually I find text messages fairly personal (as I tend to text with people I know, and they're usually in my personal contacts). It seems more professional to me for a recruiter to send an email, or make a voice call when they really want to get in touch with you.
I know right? The left has turned into a hodgepodge of irrationality.
You know, with the fraud perpetrated by the left, they've effectively made our election process moot. We'll no longer have a choice because they've organized themselves enough to falsify the national election at the mass scale. Count my words, within the next few years, the number of republicans holding office in either house of congress will dwindle. They finally realized that their old delegate recount scam no longer worked for them so they went for flat-out fraud. Trump won that election and millions of us were disenfranchised. I'm sad for the process being dismantled. This is third world shit.
Democrat voters think they've won, but they have no idea that they're just as screwed as the republicans. They're probably more screwed because, by the time it is realized that they've been deceived by their own party, it'll be years past and far too late to fix things. Just look at that AOC character out of NYC. Hell, look at that VP of ours. So embarassing to know our VP came into power because she can suck a mighty dick. She was, effectively, the worst candidate in their pool, was the first to drop out, had the fewest votes, and ran out of money first. Meanwhile, their nomination process was so riddled with corruption that a few states never even finalized their tallies. Interesting how the voters failed to notice. It was their legacy > > press who 'forgot' to make it a story.
Meanwhile, democrats from my state (CA) are moving to places like Texas to enjoy the freedom there. How ironic... A state held strongly by conservatives and that's where they flock. They'll continue to decay the sanctity of that state because they're taking their bullshit politics with them. Just look at Austin.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Arelor on Fri Jan 29 2021 07:13 pm
People does not believe this until they try. If you are not in they
just don't bother sending messages to you unless they really,
really, really need you.
yeah i notice a lot of recruiters use whatsapp
I've used WhatsApp but have never been contacted by a recruiter on it.
One thing I find odd (for some reason) is some job recruiters are now sendin text messages. Usually I find text messages fairly personal (as I tend to t with people I know, and they're usually in my personal contacts). It seems more professional to me for a recruiter to send an email, or make a voice ca when they really want to get in touch with you.
Nightfox
The problem is many recruiters will attempt to contact you at some point, and try to send you a Whatsapp message, and if you have no Whatsapp they will discard you and move over to the next candidate of the list.
just randomly today i was watching joe rogan at work and
he had mtv's adam curry aka THE HAIR. he's a genius..
Is that episode #1436 ?
i dunno, i searched for it and found it. how many times did
he have adam curry on there
I think Rogan's interviews need to be shorter. 3 hours is
too long in one sitting.
i dont even notice or watch or listen to the whole thing. i
think podcasts are boring no matter how short they are. -+-
Which podcast? I hadn't heard of Adam Curry in years, he
was surprisingly ahead of the curve back in the '90s.
..I enjoyed the one with Moxie Marlinspike (the guy who
built Signal).
That would be interesting to hear.
Re: Re: GAB
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 2021 05:51 pm
The problem is many recruiters will attempt to contact you at some
point, and try to send you a Whatsapp message, and if you have no
Whatsapp they will discard you and move over to the next candidate
of the list.
Do they ever actually call people on the phone? The thing that phones were made for..
For the most part, podcasts are just conversations. Unless you
are listening to a specific show about specific things expecting
to learn something new, then the whole deal is just a very
passive experience listening to people talk (boring?) amongst
themselves.
My favorite phone, ever was a Samsung SIII. I loved the size, and when AT&T stopped updating it, I went to CyanogenMod and later LineageOS. The last developer with an SIII finally gave up a while ago, and updates stopped coming. That was the only reason I switched.
Rooted and running Kali Linux on a 2011 phone, years later... Pretty amazing to think of it.
what turned me off about podcasts is there's a lot of people
that are doing them that shouldnt be doing them. they have
bad voices and they're boring.
joe rogan is decent to listen to. they have interesting
topics and he keeps it moving on pretty good. he's probably
one of the few podcasters i like. -+-
I just fired up WhatsApp on my phone. I've had a total of 1
conversation on it. When I went to open a new conversation,
I was shocked at how many people in my contacts lists had
it! Unless they have some sort of FB Messenger to WhatsApp
integration.
I think Rogan's interviews need to be shorter. 3 hours is
too long in one sitting.
I have two extremely long-form podcasts I listen to - Jocko
Podcast and the Tim Ferriss show. Both go extremely in-
depth, but Jocko Willink will have a guest come on for 2 or
3 episodes.
For me, an hour is about as long as I like. With an hour
podcast I can break it up over the course of a work day and
listen to the whole thing.
I got baned on twitter because I said "I wonder what would
happen if I called someone retarded" a few minutes later I
was banned. here is twitters mission statement.
Was it just one post and the one word? ..Or, was the ban after
a series of posts prior to that in an ongoing converstation?
I know right? The left has turned into a hodgepodge of irrationality.
You know, with the fraud perpetrated by the left, they've effectively made our election process moot. We'll no longer have a choice because they've organized themselves enough to falsify the national election at the mass scale. Count my words, within the next few years, the number of republicans holding office in either house of congress will dwindle. They finally realized that their old delegate recount scam no longer worked for them so they went for flat-out fraud. Trump won that election and millions of us were disenfranchised. I'm sad for the process being dismantled. This is third world shit.
Re: Re: GAB
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 2021 05:51 pm
The problem is many recruiters will attempt to contact you at some point, and try to send you a Whatsapp message, and i
you have no Whatsapp they will discard you and move over to the next candidate of the list.
Do they ever actually call people on the phone? The thing that phones were made for..
Nightfox
Hello poindexter!
** On Saturday 30.01.21 - 07:00, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Ogg:
I just fired up WhatsApp on my phone. I've had a total of 1 conversation on it. When I went to open a new conversation,
I was shocked at how many people in my contacts lists had
it! Unless they have some sort of FB Messenger to WhatsApp
integration.
You mean that WhatsApp sniffed through the Contacts list of your
phone and checked to see if they were registered with WhatsApp, automatically by default?
I heard that Signal does the same thing. Moxie (the Signal
developer) was on a Joe Rogan podcast and explained why they
prefer to do that. The explanation seemed reasonable, but Joe
had good reasons *not* to do that.
joe rogan is decent to listen to. they have interesting
topics and he keeps it moving on pretty good. he's probably
one of the few podcasters i like. -+-
I suppose he gets most of his revenue from YT views? What a
comfy way to earn a living by just talking.
Meanwhile, I suppose he does contract commentator work for the
Do they ever actually call people on the phone? The thing that
phones were made for..
OK BOOMER.
nobody does that anymore.
You mean that WhatsApp sniffed through the Contacts list of your
phone and checked to see if they were registered with WhatsApp, automatically by default?
Actually I have WhatsApp for business coms only. Because if
you don't have it, you don't exist.
However, I refuse to use the polluted smartphone for
personal communications, which means that when there is a
party, I am never invited, because if you are not in the
Whatsapp group your friends won't bother reaching out for
you somewhere else.
Unless they need you because they need a place for the
party, and your house is the only one available that week,
or that sort of thing.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Jan 31 2021 01:27 am
Do they ever actually call people on the phone? The thing that
phones were made for..
OK BOOMER.
nobody does that anymore.
... says a sysop still running a BBS.
I don't think parties would be a high priority even now after 1
year of covid shit. It would probably be easier to arrange a
private one-to-one party. ;)
Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
@MSGID: <6016EE9A.51863.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <60158E15.45102.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
Hello poindexter!
** On Saturday 30.01.21 - 07:00, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Ogg:
I just fired up WhatsApp on my phone. I've had a total of 1
conversation on it. When I went to open a new conversation,
I was shocked at how many people in my contacts lists had
it! Unless they have some sort of FB Messenger to WhatsApp
integration.
You mean that WhatsApp sniffed through the Contacts list of your
phone and checked to see if they were registered with WhatsApp, automatically by default?
I heard that Signal does the same thing. Moxie (the Signal
developer) was on a Joe Rogan podcast and explained why they
prefer to do that. The explanation seemed reasonable, but Joe
had good reasons *not* to do that.
Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
@MSGID: <6016EE9A.51864.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <60158E15.45098.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
Hello poindexter!
** On Saturday 30.01.21 - 06:43, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Ogg:
I think Rogan's interviews need to be shorter. 3 hours is
too long in one sitting.
I have two extremely long-form podcasts I listen to - Jocko
Podcast and the Tim Ferriss show. Both go extremely in-
depth, but Jocko Willink will have a guest come on for 2 or
3 episodes.
Splitting up a show into separate 1hr segments would work better
for me.
For me, an hour is about as long as I like. With an hour
podcast I can break it up over the course of a work day and
listen to the whole thing.
Here's what I encountered when I first went to fetch a Joe Rogan
episode from last year:
C:\Downloads>youtube-dl https://youtu.be/NaPKrZTUoUs [youtube] NaPKrZTUoUs: Downloading webpage [download] Destination: Joe
Rogan Experience #1436 - Adam Curry-NaPKrZTUoUs.mp4 [download]
0.8% of 1.82GiB at 606.93KiB/s ETA 51:55 ERROR: Interrupted by
user
Almost 2 GIG for a simple 3 hour "talk" podcast, and almost an
hour to download it? No thanks.
I interrupted that and opted for a smaller version:
C:\Downloads>youtube-dl -f 18 https://youtu.be/NaPKrZTUoUs
[youtube] NaPKrZTUoUs: Downloading webpage [download]
Destination: Joe Rogan Experience #1436 - Adam Curry-
NaPKrZTUoUs.mp4 [download] 7.2% of 479.48MiB at 613.16KiB/s
ETA 12:22
That's 1/4 the size. Much better. The video quality was more
than good enough on my modest 32" 10 year old LCD tv.
It is a shame that podcasters don't pay attention to the size of
the files and simply assume that everyone has unlimited data and
+500Mbps speeds.
My mobile carrier has throttled me down to this until Feb 3:
URL: https://susepaste.org/46769311
:(
MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
My favorite phone, ever was a Samsung SIII. I loved the size, and when AT&T stopped updating it, I went to CyanogenMod and later LineageOS. The last developer with an SIII finally gave up a while ago, and updates stopped coming. That was the only reason I switched.
i had an s3 until it died. there was nothing special about it.
MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-
talked to a real person. this is a big name company. i did a video interview where they showed me the questions to answer and i had 3
tries to record a reply.
Dream Master wrote to calcmandan <=-
I know right? The left has turned into a hodgepodge of irrationality.
Really? That's the pot calling the kettle black.
You know, with the fraud perpetrated by the left, they've effectively made our election process moot. We'll no longer have a choice because they've organized themselves enough to falsify the national election at the mass scale. Count my words, within the next few years, the number of republicans holding office in either house of congress will dwindle. They finally realized that their old delegate recount scam no longer worked for them so they went for flat-out fraud. Trump won that election and millions of us were disenfranchised. I'm sad for the process being dismantled. This is third world shit.
What fraud? Oh, you mean trying to protect the citizens of the country from the continued spread of COVID-19? Yeah, it's a horrible excuse.
I mean, let's keep spreading the virus when we're all huddled in and around a building trying to cast our ballots. GOD FORBID!
Voting should be easy. Republican led states have a tendency of supressing voter turnout wherever a large populace of Democrats (read: people of color) live. Look at Texas. They went from having a significant number of ballot boxes statewide to one per county (https://bit.ly/2NI9XVi).
Back to my point. Voting by mail, ballot box, or in person should be
up to the electorate. States like Colorado have mail-in ballots for a number of years. We've successfully voted in Republican and Democratic candidates. Is there any fraud? Insignificantly, but there will
always be an attempt to change the vote. Why can't this work
elsewhere? It can. Yet, the minute its proposed Republican leadership cries foul because it enables more people to vote, do the research, and not take off work.
Donald Trump lost the election. States have every right to change
rules and regulations regarding mail-in ballots up to and during the election cycle. Now, Republican leadership in many of these states are trying to change the rules because their lord and savior Donald Trump
lost the election. Get over it, HE LOST fair and square.
How are you disenfranchised? Are you being told how to live? Are your rights being trampled on? Are you losing your guns? Are your roads
not getting fixed? Are you afraid you might not get electricity
tonight? Are you not going to be able to collect Social Security when
you retire? Yeah, it all still exists. Did you lose your rights under Obama? No. Did you lose them under Clinton? No. What about Carter?
No. Give me a break and be realistic.
Democrat voters think they've won, but they have no idea that they're just as screwed as the republicans. They're probably more screwed because, by the time it is realized that they've been deceived by their own party, it'll be years past and far too late to fix things. Just look at that AOC character out of NYC. Hell, look at that VP of ours. So embarassing to know our VP came into power because she can suck a mighty dick. She was, effectively, the worst candidate in their pool, was the first to drop out, had the fewest votes, and ran out of money first. Meanwhile, their nomination process was so riddled with corruption that a few states never even finalized their tallies. Interesting how the voters failed to notice. It was their legacy > press who 'forgot' to make it a story.
Nobody won. You can make all the arguments you want but the fact
remains, no one won. There's nothing wrong with AOC. Oh wait, that's right, she's a woman of color. Yeah, she should shut her little mouth
and let the men do all the talking. It's nice to finally hear someone speak up about the crap going on in the Capitol. Oh, and Vice
President Harris and her "sucking dick". I keep forgetting. Women
have to "suck dick" to get anywhere in life. Are you married? Do you have daughters? Go ahead and tell the women in your life that if they want to get anywhere in life that they should "suck dick". Let me
guess, you tell them this all the time? I doubt it.
Certification of votes:
-Delaware: Nov 5
-Vermont, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Louisiana: Nov 10
-Wyoming, South Carolina: Nov 13
-Mississippi: Nov 13
-Virginia: Nov 16 (Completed Nov 18)
-Florida: Nov 17
-Massachusetts, Idaho, Arkansas: Nov 18
-North Dakota, Georgia: Nov 20
-Utah, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Maine, Kentucky: Nov 23
-Ohio, North Carolina, New Mexico, Nevada, Minnesota, Indiana: Nov 24 -Alaska, Alabama: Nov 25
-Nebraska, Montana, Iowa, Colorado, Arizona: Nov 30
-Wisconsin, Kansas: Dec 1
-New Hampshire, DC: Dec 2
-West Virginia, Washington, Texas, Oregon, Connecticut: Dec 3
-Illinois: Dec 4
-New York: Dec 7
-New Jersey, Missouri, Maryland: Dec 8
-California: Dec 11
The safe harbor provision for election year 2020 fell on December 8.
The Electoral College cast its votes for president and vice president
on December 14, 2020. ALL VOTES WERE COUNTED!
Keep making up stories. Keep telling yourself lies. The truth is that every court case brought up failed. Why? LACK OF EVIDENCE!!! There
was and remains no voter fraud. Get over it.
Meanwhile, democrats from my state (CA) are moving to places like Texas to enjoy the freedom there. How ironic... A state held strongly by conservatives and that's where they flock. They'll continue to decay the sanctity of that state because they're taking their bullshit politics with them. Just look at Austin.
Let me guess, you're from Central or Northern California, or worse,
Orange County? They aren't moving to Texas to enjoy the freedoms, they are moving to Texas to be able to afford to BUY A HOUSE! I am happy to have moved away from California, and I could afford it. California is simply unaffordable, traffic is horrible, and taxes are ridiculous.
There is nothing wrong with having differing views about anything. It
is necessary to listen to each other and acknowledge their ideas. You
may not like it, but you might learn something.
Brian Klauss <-> Dream
Master Caught in a Dream |
caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
---
Synchronet Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
Nightfox wrote to Arelor <=-
The problem is many recruiters will attempt to contact you at some point, and try to send you a Whatsapp message, and if you have no Whatsapp they will discard you and move over to the next candidate of the list.
Do they ever actually call people on the phone? The thing that phones were made for..
MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-
Do they ever actually call people on the phone? The thing that phones were made for..
OK BOOMER.
nobody does that anymore.
I got baned on twitter because I said "I wonder what would
happen if I called someone retarded" a few minutes later I
was banned.
Was it just one post and the one word? ..Or, was the ban
after a series of posts prior to that in an ongoing
converstation?
Just the one post.
joe rogan is decent to listen to..
now he's partnered with spotify and from the little i've
watched, he has some really long long ads for things on his
podcast. so i guess he's only going to be on spotify. -+-■
I wouldn't call people who are not reaching out, friends. Do
they buy your bars of soap?
Besides, is not being at a party a great loss? Is that for
scouting a potential hook-up? ..or for a potential business
networking?
YouTube-dl can download just the audio
I use
youtube-dl -x -f 251 http://youtube.com/YouTubeVideo
to download an OPUS file. The large file size is an
inevitability of the 2K video quality, but the audio
component, is usually less than 200M for a 3 hour podcast.
In the rare cases when I'm listening where they visually
display something that I really need to screen, I pause the
audio, jump to YouTube and jump to that section of the video
and watch what I need to see.
Besides, is not being at a party a great loss? Is that for
scouting a potential hook-up? ..or for a potential business
networking?
You didn't need to remind me that my social circle is quite
low quality. I am well aware of that already.
Missing a party is not agreat loss. Missing a social circle
with all the connections that come with it is.
I got baned on twitter because I said "I wonder what would
happen if I called someone retarded" a few minutes later I
was banned.
Was it just one post and the one word? ..Or, was the ban
after a series of posts prior to that in an ongoing
converstation?
Just the one post.
That's pretty bad (the sudden ban, I mean). On a recent Joe
Rogan podcast he recounted a story about someone else getting
banned for just saying "Good for you, man."
i had an s3 until it died. there was nothing special about it.
You do realize that personal preference is just that - personal?
MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-
talked to a real person. this is a big name company. i did a video
interview where they showed me the questions to answer and i had 3
tries to record a reply.
I had a company try to do an initial screen with a chat bot. "It's AI!"
nobody does that anymore.
You sound like my 17 year-old son. He said the same thing, and what I countered with was that the generation in management positions and in academics do use the phone, and having phone skills (and a proper voicemail greeting with your name instead of the roboto "reading out your number" generic greeting) will make a much better impression.
Apparently it's a 100M$ deal with Spotify. Crazy.
I haven't tried his podcast on Spotify.. but are you saying that
they are already running ads/sponsorships with it? His
interviews are already up to 3 hours long WITHOUT any ads.
Dream Master wrote to calcmandan <=-
Re: Re: GAB
By: calcmandan to Dr. What on Fri Jan 29 2021 08:17 pm
I know right? The left has turned into a hodgepodge of irrationality.
Really? That's the pot calling the kettle black.
You know, with the fraud perpetrated by the left, they've effectively made our election process moot. We'll no longer have a choice because they've organized themselves enough to falsify the national election at the mass scale. Count my words, within the next few years, the number of republicans holding office in either house of congress will dwindle. They finally realized that their old delegate recount scam no longer worked for them so they went for flat-out fraud. Trump won that election and millions of us were disenfranchised. I'm sad for the process being dismantled. This is third world shit.
What fraud? Oh, you mean trying to protect the citizens of the country from the continued spread of COVID-19? Yeah, it's a horrible excuse.
I mean, let's keep spreading the virus when we're all huddled in and around a building trying to cast our ballots. GOD FORBID!
Voting should be easy. Republican led states have a tendency of supressing voter turnout wherever a large populace of Democrats (read: people of color) live. Look at Texas. They went from having a significant number of ballot boxes statewide to one per county (https://bit.ly/2NI9XVi).
Back to my point. Voting by mail, ballot box, or in person should be
up to the electorate. States like Colorado have mail-in ballots for a number of years. We've successfully voted in Republican and Democratic candidates. Is there any fraud? Insignificantly, but there will
always be an attempt to change the vote. Why can't this work
elsewhere? It can. Yet, the minute its proposed Republican leadership cries foul because it enables more people to vote, do the research, and not take off work.
Denn wrote to calcmandan <=-
Re: Re: GAB
By: calcmandan to Dr. What on Fri Jan 29 2021 08:17 pm
I know right? The left has turned into a hodgepodge of irrationality.
You know, with the fraud perpetrated by the left, they've effectively made our election process moot. We'll no longer have a choice because they've organized themselves enough to falsify the national election at the mass scale. Count my words, within the next few years, the number of republicans holding office in either house of congress will dwindle. They finally realized that their old delegate recount scam no longer worked for them so they went for flat-out fraud. Trump won that election and millions of us were disenfranchised. I'm sad for the process being dismantled. This is third world shit.
I also blame weak Republicans that are scared of their own shadow for
not standing up to the Democrats.
Mitch Mconnel talked the big talk but in the end he bowed to the Democrats.
I saw how quick Mitch started kissing Schumers ass.
there is literally nothing special about it. the s3 has no special features. it's just a samsung phone. there is nothing remarkable in any way about that phone. the size, the camera, battery life, the launcher are not remarkable.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Feb 01 2021 04:27 pm
there is literally nothing special about it. the s3 has no special
features. it's just a samsung phone. there is nothing remarkable in
any way about that phone. the size, the camera, battery life, the
launcher are not remarkable.
The Samsung Galaxy S3 is an older phone. It's not really remarkable anymore.
I've tended to like the Samsung Galaxy phones. I had a Samsung Galaxy and recently bought another phone, and decided on a Google Pixel 5 because it's a little less expensive than a Samsung Galaxy phone. One thing I miss a little bit about the Samsungs is Samsung had some of their own utilities, such as a phone setting transfer tool which would re-install all the apps you had on your old phone and would even set up your home screen the same way, with all the app shortcuts and any app categories you
-+- OpenXP 5.0.48
Just curious what open XP is?
You didn't need to remind me that my social circle is quite
low quality. I am well aware of that already.
Maybe it *is* time to consider using Whatsapp for the social
aspects of connecting with humans that are close to you?
Re: Re: GAB
By: poindexter FORTRAN to MRO on Sun Jan 31 2021 10:21 am
i had an s3 until it died. there was nothing special about it.
You do realize that personal preference is just that - personal?
there is literally nothing special about it. the s3 has no special features. it's just a
samsung phone. there is nothing remarkable in any way about that phone. the size, the camer
battery life, the launcher are not remarkable.
I've tended to like the Samsung Galaxy phones. I had a Samsung
Galaxy and recently bought another phone, and decided on a Google
Pixel 5 because it's a little less expensive than a Samsung Galaxy
phone. One thing I miss a little bit about the Samsungs is Samsung
had some of their own utilities, such as a phone setting transfer
tool which would re-install all the apps you had on your old phone
and would even set up your home screen the same way, with all the
app shortcuts and any app categories you
android and google should do that for you when you get a new phone. that's what it always does for me.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Ogg to Arelor on Mon Feb 01 2021 09:34 am
You didn't need to remind me that my social circle is quite
low quality. I am well aware of that already.
Maybe it *is* time to consider using Whatsapp for the social
aspects of connecting with humans that are close to you?
What I need is a wider social circle.
Every single time I have started doing something because everybody else is doing it, in order to fit in, I find that I fail to fit in anyway. So I'd rather keep being myself.
You do realize that personal preference is just that - personal?
there is literally nothing special about it. the s3 has no special
features. it's just a samsung phone. there is nothing remarkable in
any way about that phone. the size, the camer battery life, the
launcher are not remarkable.
Well afaik it has the Heimdal loader going for it?
Early Galaxies made it easy to load your own ROMS, which is turning into an special thing nowadays.
android and google should do that for you when you get a new phone.
that's what it always does for me.
My new Android phone didn't do that.
Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
You mean that WhatsApp sniffed through the Contacts list of your
phone and checked to see if they were registered with WhatsApp, automatically by default?
Ogg wrote to MRO <=-
That is so true. Some podcasts based on their promotions look interesting. But when actually listening to them, it can go
downhill very fast based on the sound of their voices and manner
of speech (such as a lot of ummms ahhhhs likes, etc.)
Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I have two extremely long-form podcasts I listen to - Jocko
Podcast and the Tim Ferriss show. Both go extremely in-
depth, but Jocko Willink will have a guest come on for 2 or
3 episodes.
Splitting up a show into separate 1hr segments would work better
for me.
calcmandan wrote to Denn <=-
Listen, I can't pretend to know what happens in Washington. There's no telling who was threatened with what, or who was paid off. But whatever
it is, the game they're playing is putting our country in dire straits.
Arelor wrote to MRO <=-
Well afaik it has the Heimdal loader going for it?
Early Galaxies made it easy to load your own ROMS, which is turning
into an special thing nowadays.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: MRO to Arelor on Tue Feb 02 2021 04:19 pm
maybe what you need is to STOP being yourself!
Well, I'd like more elaboration before we say that. Are you just too weird for people or do they think you're an asshole? Do YOU think you're an asshole?
I can't stand listening to that younger generation thing where you drop the T sound, mid-word. Proper pronunciation is impor-int. That's turned me off of a couple of podcasts.
I can't stand listening to that younger generation thing where you drop th T sound, mid-word. Proper pronunciation is impor-int. That's turned me off of a couple of podcasts.
Ogg wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6018117D.51917.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <60174EAA.48190.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Hello Boraxman!
** On Sunday 31.01.21 - 22:50, Boraxman wrote to Ogg:
YouTube-dl can download just the audio
I use
youtube-dl -x -f 251 http://youtube.com/YouTubeVideo
to download an OPUS file. The large file size is an
inevitability of the 2K video quality, but the audio
component, is usually less than 200M for a 3 hour podcast.
But the docs say that -x is a "post-processing" option, meaning
that it happens *after* the download, ...but I will try it.
In the rare cases when I'm listening where they visually
display something that I really need to screen, I pause the
audio, jump to YouTube and jump to that section of the video
and watch what I need to see.
That is smart. There is not much to watch in the Joe Rogan
stuff. I need to find a way to listen to it *while* doing
somthing else that doesn't need too much concentration. For now,
I was just laying back in my couch/bed and putting my life on
hold for 3 hours.
you're quoting what i said and not what he said.
YouTube-dl can download just the audio
I use
youtube-dl -x -f 251 http://youtube.com/YouTubeVideo
to download an OPUS file...
But the docs say that -x is a "post-processing" option,
meaning that it happens *after* the download, ...but I
will try it.
The post processing is I think to extract the audio from the
container and create an OPUS file. It doesn't download the
video at all, ...
The -F parameter allows you to see which files/version you
can download. You'll notice some are audio only, including
number 251 which is only an opus stream, no video.
..There is not much to watch in the Joe Rogan
stuff. I need to find a way to listen to it *while* doing
somthing else..
Now that he is on Spotify, it a more limiting unfortunately.
I don't have a portable player that support spotify.
What I need is a wider social circle.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Every single time I have started doing
something because everybody else is doing it,
..in order to fit in, I find that I fail to fit in anyway.
So I'd rather keep being myself.
you're quoting what i said and not what he said.
I know, it was intentional.
What I need is a wider social circle.
Every single time I have started doing^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
something because everybody else is doing it,
Like what?
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Ogg to Arelor on Wed Feb 03 2021 10:11 pm
What I need is a wider social circle.
Every single time I have started doing^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
something because everybody else is doing it,
Like what?
Like joining the newest social platform which is being hyped a given year :-)
I think Rogan's interviews need to be shorter. 3 hours is too
long in one sitting.
i dont even notice or watch or listen to the whole thing. i think
podcasts are boring no matter how short they are.
something because everybody else is doing it,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Like what?
Like joining the newest social platform which is being hyped
a given year :-)
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: MRO to Tortillaretreat on Wed Feb 03 2021 12:31 am
you're quoting what i said and not what he said.
I know, it was intentional.
BTW.. I notice that some of Rogan's podcasts are nolonger listed
on YT. I was hoping to grab the 2nd interview with Adam Curry
and the one with Gelnn Greenwald, but they are missing.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Tortillaretreat to MRO on Wed Feb 03 2021 09:58 pm
you're quoting what i said and not what he said.
I know, it was intentional.
(snort)
The instant messaging platforms, from MSN to Skype to Discord, were very nessecary transitions for those in amature production circles given their widespread adoption amongst younger users.
My siblings come to me and say "Have you heard of ' XYZ Internet Handle' dude? He is like, totally super famous right now."
I'll ask, "Do you mean they're big on TicTok?" and they say "Yeah."
I reply "TicTok is Chinese spyware and propaganda, which is only viewed by a small minority of your platforms "Massive" audience. Are they big on any other platforms, YouTube, Twitter, their own Website?"
"Oh naw, they've got an Instagram and Facebook. Posted from my iPhone XIII.2 XL 240gb $ 2,999.99 Premo model."
Someone just drive an ice pick behind my eye and give me a labotomy now.
■ Crystal Palace, Orbitsville ■
Hello Arelor!
** On Thursday 04.02.21 - 02:53, Arelor wrote to Ogg:
something because everybody else is doing it,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Like what?
Like joining the newest social platform which is being hyped
a given year :-)
Oh.. I thought you may have meant something in the lines of a
type of hobby or activity. Sometimes traditional things like a
sports competition, a charity event, etc.. are great ways to
encounter new people to hang out with.
I took Karate, Judo and ballroom dancing and participated in a
choral ensemble while I was in university. Then I revisited
ballroom dancing later in life. I added rock climbing and
spelunking in there. All were fun ways to meet new people.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Vlk-451 to Arelor on Thu Feb 04 2021 09:47 am
The instant messaging platforms, from MSN to Skype to Discord, were very nessecary
transitions for those in amature production circles given their widespread adoption among
younger users.
My siblings come to me and say "Have you heard of ' XYZ Internet Handle' dude? He is like
totally super famous right now."
I'll ask, "Do you mean they're big on TicTok?" and they say "Yeah."
I reply "TicTok is Chinese spyware and propaganda, which is only viewed by a small minori
of your platforms "Massive" audience. Are they big on any other platforms, YouTube, Twitt
their own Website?"
"Oh naw, they've got an Instagram and Facebook. Posted from my iPhone XIII.2 XL 240gb $
2,999.99 Premo model."
Someone just drive an ice pick behind my eye and give me a labotomy now.
þ Crystal Palace, Orbitsville þ
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet? Its a Linux
alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even close to being usable. I
probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text
message, and data working, all with different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect
my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and text failed. Another
distro, I could get text messages working, but not phone calls. I set my expectations prett
low and the phone actually fell lower, lol.
The Dawn of Demise BBS (tdod.org)
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet?
Its a Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even close to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and data working, all with different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect to my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and text failed. Another distro, I could get text messages working, but not phone calls. I set my expectations pretty low and the phone actually fell lower, lol.
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet? Its a Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even close to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and data working, all with different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect to my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and
Oh I have my bunch of hobbies. And I mean, actual hobbies I do because I like. It is just that oftentimes I am the only one who finds them interesting in my area :-P
they'd allow it to do. When I finally rooted the phone, it was nice to have more control, but it could easily turn into a brick if I wasn't careful. Since then, I've been an iPhone user and I doubt this will
its not even close to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and data working, all with different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect to my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and
Ogg wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <601B5DFF.51987.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <601B1137.48290.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Hello Boraxman!
** On Tuesday 02.02.21 - 22:02, Boraxman wrote to Ogg:
YouTube-dl can download just the audio
I use
youtube-dl -x -f 251 http://youtube.com/YouTubeVideo
to download an OPUS file...
But the docs say that -x is a "post-processing" option,
meaning that it happens *after* the download, ...but I
will try it.
The post processing is I think to extract the audio from the
container and create an OPUS file. It doesn't download the
video at all, ...
The -F parameter allows you to see which files/version you
can download. You'll notice some are audio only, including
number 251 which is only an opus stream, no video.
I am familiar with seeing the alternative downloads when using
the -F parameter. But in that case, it you are choosing 251 for
Opus, then wouldn't -x be redundant?
I mean, wouldn't this accomplish the same thing for you?
youtube-dl -f 251 http://youtube.com/YouTubeVideo
I have used the -f parameter to fetch the audio versions of
music videos. I never really thought of doing that for Joe
Rogan's podcasts.. but it might be the best solution!
BTW.. I notice that some of Rogan's podcasts are nolonger listed
on YT. I was hoping to grab the 2nd interview with Adam Curry
and the one with Gelnn Greenwald, but they are missing.
..There is not much to watch in the Joe Rogan
stuff. I need to find a way to listen to it *while* doing
somthing else..
Now that he is on Spotify, it a more limiting unfortunately.
I don't have a portable player that support spotify.
I started to experiment with it with the Spotify app on my
Blackberry. There is what looks like a download button (just a
down arrow) next to each podcast, but it doesn't give any visual
clue that it is downloading anything when pressed. :(
There is no clue whether it is downloading just the audio
portion or the larger video file.
I figured if that download works, then I could simply connect
the audio-out of the Blackberry to a small amplifier that I have
nearby and "play" the file in the offline mode.
YouTube seem to have dropped some episodes. The Tech Oligarchy are assuming the rolee of our guardians and parents :rolleyes"
Oh.. I thought you may have meant something in the lines of
a type of hobby or activity, etc.. are great ways to
encounter new people to hang out with.
..All were fun ways to meet new people.
Oh I have my bunch of hobbies. And I mean, actual hobbies I
do because I like. It is just that oftentimes I am the only
one who finds them interesting in my area :-P
BTW.. I notice that some of Rogan's podcasts are nolonger
listed on YT. I was hoping to grab the 2nd interview with
Adam Curry and the one with Gelnn Greenwald, but they are
missing.
1533 is for spotify and it's recorded in the new studio in texas.
-+-
Hello Arelor!
** On Thursday 04.02.21 - 16:51, Arelor wrote to Ogg:
Oh.. I thought you may have meant something in the lines of
a type of hobby or activity, etc.. are great ways to
encounter new people to hang out with.
..All were fun ways to meet new people.
Oh I have my bunch of hobbies. And I mean, actual hobbies I
do because I like. It is just that oftentimes I am the only
one who finds them interesting in my area :-P
But are your hobbies sociable? Not sure if gun or knife
collecting could qualify, unless there were some kind of co-ed
component like a target shooting competition or expo?
Tortillaretreat wrote to MRO <=-
you're quoting what i said and not what he said.
I know, it was intentional.
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet? Its a Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even close to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and data working, all with different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect to my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and text failed. Another distro, I could get text messages working, but not phone calls. I set my expectations pretty low and the phone actually fell lower, lol.
This is what I will never understand. Why get something that has the potential of working, spending money on it, and hoping for the best? One of the main reasons why I left Andoid back around iPhone 4 days is that I felt that the carriers had too much control of the interface and what they'd allow it to do. When I finally rooted the phone, it was nice to have more control, but it could easily turn into a brick if I wasn't careful. Since then, I've been an iPhone user and I doubt this will change. Ultimately, I buy things because "they just work" and not "they will hopefully work".
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet? Its a Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even close to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and data working, all with different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect to my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and
oh thanks for bringing that up. my friend just posted about it on his telegram channel the other day.
i've been looking for a phone that has linux as an os too.
whenever they come up with something like that it looks promissing but it ends up being dogshit.
its not even close to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and data working, all with different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect to my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and
oh, my buddy wanted to know what your error logs look like.
and also are you experimenting with a bunch of roms?
Target shooting counts as sociable but I don¡'t like most shooters in my area ough for sharing a beer with them.
There were some I really liked but they are not arround anymore. Most people w
is any worthy leaves this province. In fact I
am considering moving my main business over. Go picture it.
Target shooting counts as sociable but I don't like most shooters in my area
ough for sharing a beer with them.
That is too bad. The person I used to shoot with passed away several years ago. I sometimes shoot with his wife and son, b
they don't live nearby.
There were some I really liked but they are not arround anymore. Most people w
is any worthy leaves this province. In fact I
am considering moving my main business over. Go picture it.
Which province are you in again?
* SLMR 2.1a * Docs? Why look at the Docs? Nurses are better.
I am familiar with seeing the alternative downloads when using
the -F parameter. But in that case, it you are choosing 251 for
Opus, then wouldn't -x be redundant?
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Minex to All on Thu Feb 04 2021 11:31 am
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Vlk-451 to Arelor on Thu Feb 04 2021 09:47 am
The instant messaging platforms, from MSN to Skype to Discord, were very nessecary transitions for those in amature production circles given their widespread adoption among younger users.
My siblings come to me and say "Have you heard of ' XYZ Internet Handle' dude? He is like totally super famous right now."
I'll ask, "Do you mean they're big on TicTok?" and they say "Yeah."
I reply "TicTok is Chinese spyware and propaganda, which is only viewed by a small minori of your platforms "Massive" audience. Are they big on any other platforms, YouTube, Twitt their own Website?"
"Oh naw, they've got an Instagram and Facebook. Posted from my iPhone XIII.2 XL 240gb $ 2,999.99 Premo model."
Someone just drive an ice pick behind my eye and give me a labotomy now.
¡ Crystal Palace, Orbitsville ¡
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet? Its a Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even close to being usable. I probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and data working, all with different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and text failed. Another distro, I could get text messages working, but not phone calls. I set my expectations prett low and the phone actually fell lower, lol.
The Dawn of Demise BBS (tdod.org)
Thanks for commenting. It certainly sounds horrible :-)
It looks like the only alternatives that are working as of today are Android derivatives.
I whish Purism produced something worth it.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Minex to All on Thu Feb 04 2021 11:31 am
then, I've been an iPhone user and I doubt this will change. Ultimately, I buy things because "they just work" and not "they will hopefully work".
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
That is classified information for the time being :-)
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Dream Master to Minex on Thu Feb 04 2021 06:19 pm
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Minex to All on Thu Feb 04 2021 11:31 am
then, I've been an iPhone user and I doubt this will change. Ultimately, buy things because "they just work" and not "they will hopefully work".
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
Sure it "just works," but at what cost?
þ Crystal Palace, Orbitsville þ
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Dream Master to Minex on Thu Feb 04 2021 06:19 pm
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Minex to All on Thu Feb 04 2021 11:31 am
then, I've been an iPhone user and I doubt this will change. Ultimately, I buy things because "they just work" and not "they will hopefully work".
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
Sure it "just works," but at what cost?
That is classified information for the time being :-)
That is all right. I am always curious about where someone is talking
about when the describe the land, culture, or politics in much detail. I can understand not wanting to say, too! :)
* SLMR 2.1a * If all appears to go well, you missed something...
You need the -x option in order for youtube-dl to save the OPUS from the downloaded file. It seems that whatever option you choose in terms of format, you always get a container file that holds video and audio (mp4, webm, etc).
-x gives you the .opus
You need the -x option in order for youtube-dl to save the OPUS from the downloaded file. It seems that whatever option you choose in terms of format, you always get a container file that holds video and audio (mp4, webm, etc).
-x gives you the .opus
I get exactly the same file whether I use -x or not:
C:\Downloads>youtube-dl -f 251 https://youtu.be/BBCl9A9NlRw
[youtube] BBCl9A9NlRw: Downloading webpage
Re: Re: podcasting, file sizes
By: Ogg to Boraxman on Sat Feb 06 2021 11:48 am
You need the -x option in order for youtube-dl to save the OPUS from t downloaded file. It seems that whatever option you choose in terms of format, you always get a container file that holds video and audio (mp webm, etc).
-x gives you the .opus
I get exactly the same file whether I use -x or not:
C:\Downloads>youtube-dl -f 251 https://youtu.be/BBCl9A9NlRw
[youtube] BBCl9A9NlRw: Downloading webpage
do you ever use it do download a playlist? does it barf on you when there's missing entry?
i have it do that and then stop everything.
I think these two podcast episodes were particularly
entertaining. Laughed my ass off a few times through both of
them.
Free Range American: Ep 004 Hodge Twins https:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=thAFsxCqLfQ
Free Range American: Ep 096 JP Sears https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TdxzjPbQN8
Re: Re: podcasting, file sizes
By: MRO to Ogg on Sat Feb 06 2021 03:23 pm
Re: Re: podcasting, file sizes
By: Ogg to Boraxman on Sat Feb 06 2021 11:48 am
You need the -x option in order for youtube-dl to save the OPUS from t downloaded file. It seems that whatever option you choose in terms of format, you always get a container file that holds video and audio (mp webm, etc).
-x gives you the .opus
I get exactly the same file whether I use -x or not:
C:\Downloads>youtube-dl -f 251 https://youtu.be/BBCl9A9NlRw
[youtube] BBCl9A9NlRw: Downloading webpage
do you ever use it do download a playlist? does it barf on you when there's missing entry?
i have it do that and then stop everything.
I have no extensive experience, but you can issue an option for it to ignore errors or missing entries I think.
The man page is surprisingly long and has lots of options in it.
when i hear 'it just works' or whatever, i just see someone who's lazy and they're about to get screwed over by whoever they hand over things to.
do you ever use it do download a playlist? does it barf on
you when there's missing entry?
i have it do that and then stop everything.
I have no extensive experience, but you can issue an option
for it to ignore errors or missing entries I think.
The man page is surprisingly long and has lots of options in
it.
yeah i always add that option with programs when i find it. no dice
there's a lot of crazies out there.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: MRO to Vlk-451 on Sat Feb 06 2021 01:54 pm
when i hear 'it just works' or whatever, i just see someone who's lazy and they're about to get screwed over by whoever they hand over things to.
I come from the philosophy of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Adding complexity for the sake of complexity is ridiculous. Apple, like every good OEM, does their best to take out the complexities and offer a product that works flawlessly for the users.
No doubt, some of the 242 might fail, but just generate a list
of the successful ones from the -F output and feed those through
a script/batch prog to execute youtube-dl <file> for each one of
there's a lot of crazies out there.
No kidding. There is one guy on FIDO (but apparently not here) that I
could easily see being a Silence of the Lambs type. Not Hannibal, because he is too smart, but Buffalo Bill or whatever his name was... the one with the pit in his basement.
No kidding. There is one guy on FIDO (but apparently not here) that I could easily see being a Silence of the Lambs type. Not Hannibal, because he is too smart, but Buffalo Bill or whatever his name was... the one with the pit in his basement.
Ogg wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <601EF28D.4215.dove-general@trmb.synchro.net>
@REPLY: <601E6C52.48352.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
You need the -x option in order for youtube-dl to save the OPUS from the downloaded file. It seems that whatever option you choose in terms of format, you always get a container file that holds video and audio (mp4, webm, etc).
-x gives you the .opus
I get exactly the same file whether I use -x or not:
C:\Downloads>youtube-dl -f 251 https://youtu.be/BBCl9A9NlRw
[youtube] BBCl9A9NlRw: Downloading webpage
[download] Destination: Joe Rogan Experience #1552 - Matthew McConaughey-BBCl9A9NlRw.webm
[download] 100% of 95.41MiB in 02:42
C:\Downloads>youtube-dl -x -f 251 https://youtu.be/BBCl9A9NlRw
[youtube] BBCl9A9NlRw: Downloading webpage
[download] Resuming download at byte 8559852
[download] Destination: Joe Rogan Experience #1552 - Matthew McConaughey-BBCl9A9NlRw.webm
[download] 100% of 95.41MiB in 03:39
ERROR: ffprobe/avprobe and ffmpeg/avconv not found. Please install one.
The only diff is that -x is a post-operation after the download.
MRO wrote to Ogg <=-
@MSGID: <601F08C0.2844.dove-gen@bbses.info>
@REPLY: <601EF28D.4215.dove-general@trmb.synchro.net>
Re: Re: podcasting, file sizes
By: Ogg to Boraxman on Sat Feb 06 2021 11:48 am
You need the -x option in order for youtube-dl to save the OPUS from the downloaded file. It seems that whatever option you choose in terms of format, you always get a container file that holds video and audio (mp4, webm, etc).
-x gives you the .opus
I get exactly the same file whether I use -x or not:
C:\Downloads>youtube-dl -f 251 https://youtu.be/BBCl9A9NlRw
[youtube] BBCl9A9NlRw: Downloading webpage
do you ever use it do download a playlist? does it barf on you when there's a missing entry?
i have it do that and then stop everything.
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet? It Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even clo to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and data working, all with different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect to my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and text failed. Anoth distro, I could get text messages working, but not phone calls. I set my expectations pretty low and the phone actually fell lower, lol.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Minex to All on Thu Feb 04 2021 11:31:50
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet? Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and data working, all wit different results. For one distro, it wouldn't connect to my wifi, but incoming calls and texts worked while outgoing calls and text failed. An distro, I could get text messages working, but not phone calls. I set my expectations pretty low and the phone actually fell lower, lol.
Ugh that really sucks to hear. I've been wanting to try out something l that at some point soon here. I know that I've got at least two friends who find the Lineage phones pretty decent to use, though. They use f-Droid for their software repositories, which, I suppose, could be a lot better, but what're you gonna do, really, at least it's FOSS. :P
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: MRO to Vlk-451 on Sat Feb 06 2021 01:54 pm
when i hear 'it just works' or whatever, i just see someone who's lazy and they're about to get screwed over by whoever they hand over things to.
I come from the philosophy of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Adding complexity for the sake of complexity is ridiculous. Apple, like every good OEM, does their best to take out the complexities and offer a product that works flawlessly for the users.
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Dream Master to MRO on Sun Feb 07 2021 10:27 am
apple users believe they are buying into something great; they think they have something special. that is something that jobs focused on.
that's it. it's marketting.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sun Feb 07 2021 09:53 am
No kidding. There is one guy on FIDO (but apparently not here) that I could easily see being a Silence of the Lambs type. Not Hannibal, because he is too smart, but Buffalo Bill or whatever his name was... the one with the pit in his basement.
Okay, now I am curious as to what his name is. I've seen a few out there that freak me out as you have a lot of really old blood in Fido.
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
The only diff is that -x is a post-operation after the download.
Did you notice the ERROR: line in your output for the second
command? The error is that ffmpeg/avprobe cannot be found.
Youtube-dl uses ffmpeg to extract the OPUS stream from the
.webm into a .opus file. That is the post-processing.
Because you don't have ffmpeg or avconf, the post processing
fails and you are left with the .webm container, instead of
the .opus.
then, I've been an iPhone user and I doubt this will change. Ultimately, I buy things because "they just work" and not "they will hopefully work".
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
Sure it "just works," but at what cost?
No kidding. There is one guy on FIDO (but apparently not here) that I
could easily see being a Silence of the Lambs type. Not Hannibal, because >DW> he is too smart, but Buffalo Bill or whatever his name was... the one with >DW> the pit in his basement.
Okay, now I am curious as to what his name is. I've seen a few out there that
reak me out as you have a lot of really old blood in Fido.
You need the -x option in order for youtube-dl to save the OPUS from the downloaded file. It seems that whatever option you choose in terms of format, you always get a container file that holds video and audio (mp4, webm, etc).
-x gives you the .opus
I get exactly the same file whether I use -x or not:
C:\Downloads>youtube-dl -f 251 https://youtu.be/BBCl9A9NlRw
[youtube] BBCl9A9NlRw: Downloading webpage
do you ever use it do download a playlist? does it barf on you when there's a missing entry?
i have it do that and then stop everything.
I have used it to download playlists, and by default it will just stop. Use the '-i' option to ignore errors, then it should continue on its merry way with the next video, if it happens not to be able to download one.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: MRO to Dream Master on Sun Feb 07 2021 03:05 pm
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Dream Master to MRO on Sun Feb 07 2021 10:27 am
apple users believe they are buying into something great; they think they have something special. that is something that jobs focused on.
that's it. it's marketting.
It's just so funny that they championed the 'think different' ad campaign and have this idea of going against big brother when their users are the most likely to be the ones standing in the crowd chanting in kadiance with
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Vlk-451 to Dream Master on Sat Feb 06 2021 11:51 am
then, I've been an iPhone user and I doubt this will change. Ultimately, I buy things because "they just work" and not "they will hopefully work".
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
Sure it "just works," but at what cost?
The phone cost me $150, but get this-- I am now running my BBS on the Pinephone :D I managed to get that working over the weekend.
In 2021, I never thought I'd be running a BBS with Dovenet/FidoNet on a phone.
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Vlk-451 to Dream Master on Sat Feb 06 2021 11:51 am
then, I've been an iPhone user and I doubt this will change. Ultimately, I buy things because "they just work" and not "they will hopefully work".
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
Sure it "just works," but at what cost?
The phone cost me $150, but get this-- I am now running my BBS on the Pinephone :D I managed to get that working over the weekend.
In 2021, I never thought I'd be running a BBS with Dovenet/FidoNet on a phone.
Vlk-451 wrote to MRO <=-
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Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: MRO to Dream Master on
Sun Feb 07 2021 03:05 pm
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Dream Master to MRO on Sun Feb 07 2021 10:27 am
apple users believe they are buying into something great; they think they have something special. that is something that jobs focused on.
that's it. it's marketting.
It's just so funny that they championed the 'think different' ad
campaign and have this idea of going against big brother when their
users are the most likely to be the ones standing in the crowd chanting
in kadiance with the man on the television screen lieing to them.
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone
yet? Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its
not even to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and
Vlk-451 wrote to MRO <=-
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Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: MRO to Dream Master on
Sun Feb 07 2021 03:05 pm
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Dream Master to MRO on Sun Feb 07 2021 10:27 am
apple users believe they are buying into something great; they think they have something special. that is something that jobs focused on.
that's it. it's marketting.
It's just so funny that they championed the 'think different' ad campaign and have this idea of going against big brother when their users are the most likely to be the ones standing in the crowd chanting in kadiance with the man on the television screen lieing to them.
That is what modern brands are about. Not the product, but the image, the type of person and ethos behind it. People buy brands in order to join some fictitious in group or adopt the positive properties that are associated with the brand. It's all a game of manipulating perception, not creating the best product for the best price.
Humans are flawed, and because of that, things always descend into degeneracy.
In 2021, I never thought I'd be running a BBS with Dovenet/FidoNet on a phone.
That is what modern brands are about. Not the product, but the image, the type of person and ethos behind it. People buy brands in order to join some fictitious in group or adopt the positive properties that are associated with the brand. It's all a game of manipulating perception, not creating the best product for the best price.
Sure it "just works," but at what cost?
The phone cost me $150, but get this-- I am now running my BBS on the Pinephone :D I managed to get that working over the weekend.
In 2021, I never thought I'd be running a BBS with Dovenet/FidoNet on a phone.
so can outside connections get into it?
Re: Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Arelor to Sprite on Mon Feb 08 2021 07:36 am
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet? Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls,
text message, and
May I ask what you paid for your Pinephone?
|03 HusTler |04 Havens BBS
Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: MRO to Minex on Mon Feb 08 2021 07:03 pm
Sure it "just works," but at what cost?
The phone cost me $150, but get this-- I am now running my BBS on the Pinephone :D I managed to get that working over the weekend.
In 2021, I never thought I'd be running a BBS with Dovenet/FidoNet on a phone.
so can outside connections get into it?
Ahh... its actually just connected to my home wifi acting as a server right now. I didn't know what else to do with the phone, so I thought I'd do something else creative with it.
Dream Master wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in
By: Boraxman to Vlk-451 on
Mon Feb 08 2021 11:39 pm
That is what modern brands are about. Not the product, but the image, the type of person and ethos behind it. People buy brands in order to join some fictitious in group or adopt the positive properties that are associated with the brand. It's all a game of manipulating perception, not creating the best product for the best price.
Agreed. People buy into "crowdthink" instead of buying what works for them. When I first got my iPhone 4 too many years ago, I was quite
happy with it but laughed at how small it was compared to my slightly larger Android I replaced it with. All the Apple Fanboys I knew were lauding my purchase. Fast forward a number of years, I care less what people think about my phone. It's a tool and I use it as such. Did I
go out and buy the latest iPhone 12 when it came out, no. My phone is working fine and it's paid for.
I work for a brand, and the thinking is that Millenials are very politically motivated. They aren't choosing a purchase solely based on quality, price and utility, but ethos, social responsibility, etc. It won't be long before you can make utter garbage, but as long as your "values" are better, you'll get the sales. People are using their purchasing choices to support values, so companies are more and more trying to virtue signal. This is part why companies think it is their responsibility to shape society. Companies are becoming the owners of our very social fabric, a horrendous outcome.
What this means is that people are seeing companies not just as economic entities which provide goods and services, but as fundamental SOCIAL institutions. Companies are more and more concerned about the whole employee, and employees want this too. The line between the private sector and private life and public life is blurring. A worrying development as it is giving business leaders more and more power over things they have utterly no business in. HR departments will run the world.
I source everything from the F-Droid repositiory and don't miss anything fro out of it. The only exceptions are banking programs which I am forced to use sadly.
Speaking of phones, I was curious if anyone has tried the Pinephone yet? Linux alternative. I received mine a few days ago and man, its not even to being usable. I've probably spend a good sixteen hours trying various distro's and getting phone calls, text message, and
May I ask what you paid for your Pinephone?
Thinking about this, you're absolutely correct. Look at Apple and their Soc Responsibility claims on every page of their site, their product inserts, honestly, just about everywhere. IBM went from being "Big Blue" to "Sky (Bi Blue" to ensure people everywhere know that the mammoth in the room is also socially responsible. Honestly, I'm glad these companies are doing their be to ensure employees are paid their worth, people are hired based upon merit not because they are a "white male with a four year degree in underwater basket-weaving", and that the products are built sustainably. These are important factors... but, like you said, a product could be crap and people would buy into the social fabric / social outcome instead of seeing the prod for what it is.
The new Apple M1-based computers... why? Less power consumption, own the supply chain, etc., etc., but at the end of the day, I can almost guarantee had something to do with Intel's inability to match their "ethos" to that of Apples.
Re: Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in Spain
By: Arelor to Sprite on Mon Feb 08 2021 07:36:56
I source everything from the F-Droid repositiory and don't miss anything out of it. The only exceptions are banking programs which I am forced to sadly.
Eh, I guess I really don't like its organization very well. Maybe I jus need to use it more.
The issue is they are only "socially responsible" if you believe them.
There was talk in another BBS about big firms enforcing minority-recruitment only policies because of political gains. A bad one was offices full of same ethnicity same sex employees - I think it was some Intel location in which they had close to 100% Asian-Indian Women.
That is not social responsibility. That is anti-white apparheid.
Also, I have heard rumors that Intel has been planing for the demise of X86 based architectures in the desktop and has been switching gears to offer high end chips for military contracts.
Dream Master wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in
By: Boraxman to Dream Master on
Tue Feb 09 2021 10:31 pm
I work for a brand, and the thinking is that Millenials are very politically motivated. They aren't choosing a purchase solely based on quality, price and utility, but ethos, social responsibility, etc. It won't be long before you can make utter garbage, but as long as your "values" are better, you'll get the sales. People are using their purchasing choices to support values, so companies are more and more trying to virtue signal. This is part why companies think it is their responsibility to shape society. Companies are becoming the owners of our very social fabric, a horrendous outcome.
Thinking about this, you're absolutely correct. Look at Apple and
their Social Responsibility claims on every page of their site, their product inserts, honestly, just about everywhere. IBM went from being "Big Blue" to "Sky (Big) Blue" to ensure people everywhere know that
the mammoth in the room is also socially responsible. Honestly, I'm
glad these companies are doing their best to ensure employees are paid their worth, people are hired based upon merit and not because they are
a "white male with a four year degree in underwater basket-weaving",
and that the products are built sustainably. These are important factors... but, like you said, a product could be crap and people would buy into the social fabric / social outcome instead of seeing the
product for what it is.
The new Apple M1-based computers... why? Less power consumption, own
the supply chain, etc., etc., but at the end of the day, I can almost guarantee it had something to do with Intel's inability to match their "ethos" to that of Apples.
What this means is that people are seeing companies not just as economic entities which provide goods and services, but as fundamental SOCIAL institutions. Companies are more and more concerned about the whole employee, and employees want this too. The line between the private sector and private life and public life is blurring. A worrying development as it is giving business leaders more and more power over things they have utterly no business in. HR departments will run the world.
I'm going to focus on your last sentence, "HR departments will run the world." Many years ago, I'm thinking 1996, I was working for a Big 6 accounting firm (no longer 6, but at the time it was 6) in downtown Los Angeles. They made the statement in all their hiring materials, communication, etc., that they are there for you, the employee. Nope.
It is then that I discovered that HR is not about the employee but
about protecting the employer. From that point forward I never trusted
HR departments--and, to this day, I still don't.
Arelor wrote to Dream Master <=-
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Re: Try avoiding Whatsapp in
By: Dream Master to Boraxman on
Wed Feb 10 2021 07:03 am
Thinking about this, you're absolutely correct. Look at Apple and their Soc Responsibility claims on every page of their site, their product inserts, honestly, just about everywhere. IBM went from being "Big Blue" to "Sky (Bi Blue" to ensure people everywhere know that the mammoth in the room is also socially responsible. Honestly, I'm glad these companies are doing their be to ensure employees are paid their worth, people are hired based upon merit not because they are a "white male with a four year degree in underwater basket-weaving", and that the products are built sustainably. These are important factors... but, like you said, a product could be crap and people would buy into the social fabric / social outcome instead of seeing the prod for what it is.
The new Apple M1-based computers... why? Less power consumption, own the supply chain, etc., etc., but at the end of the day, I can almost guarantee had something to do with Intel's inability to match their "ethos" to that of Apples.
The issue is they are only "socially responsible" if you believe them.
There was talk in another BBS about big firms enforcing minority-recruitment only policies because of political gains. A bad
one was offices full of same ethnicity same sex employees - I think it
was some Intel location in which they had close to 100% Asian-Indian Women.
That is not social responsibility. That is anti-white apparheid.
So in my opinion it is not only that promise of Social Justice is what matters to certain consumers, but that it doesn't matter if the promise
is remotely true or not.
Also, I have heard rumors that Intel has been planing for the demise of X86 based architectures in the desktop and has been switching gears to offer high end chips for military contracts.
Also, I have heard rumors that Intel has been planing for the demise of X86 based architectures in the desktop and has been switching gears to offer high end chips for military contracts.
I got baned on twitter because I said "I wonder what would happen if I calle someone retarded" a few minutes later I was banned.
here is twitters mission statement.
The mission we serve as Twitter, Inc. is to give everyone the power to creat and share ideas and information instantly without barriers. Our business and revenue will always follow that mission in ways that improve - and do not detract from - a free and global conversation.
I guess they failed, since they suppress one group and let another group plo their tyranny.
I got baned on twitter because I said "I wonder what would happen if I
calle someone retarded" a few minutes later I was banned.
here is twitters mission statement.
The mission we serve as Twitter, Inc. is to give everyone the power to
creat and share ideas and information instantly without barriers. Our
business and revenue will always follow that mission in ways that
improve - and do not detract from - a free and global conversation.
I guess they failed, since they suppress one group and let another
group plo their tyranny.
Yeah something as simple as that will get you banned, but there's countless posts of people getting shot or beaten to death and breathing their last breath on video. Things like that seem to manage to stay posted.
Re: GAB
By: Multiplemiggs to Denn on Fri Feb 19 2021 04:44 pm
I got baned on twitter because I said "I wonder what would happen if I
calle someone retarded" a few minutes later I was banned.
here is twitters mission statement.
The mission we serve as Twitter, Inc. is to give everyone the power to
creat and share ideas and information instantly without barriers. Our
business and revenue will always follow that mission in ways that
improve - and do not detract from - a free and global conversation.
I guess they failed, since they suppress one group and let another
group plo their tyranny.
Yeah something as simple as that will get you banned, but there's countless posts of people getting shot or beaten to
death and breathing their last breath on video. Things like that seem to manage to stay posted.
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself holding a severed bloody Trump head and nothing happened to her.
I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn media.
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself holding a severed bloody Trump head and nothing happened to her.
I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn media.
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself
holding a severed bloody Trump head and nothing happened to
her. I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn
media.
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself holding a severed b loody Trump head and nothing happened to her.
I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn media.
Same thing with the monkey ears in political cartoons.
When it happened to W, it was OK and maybe even funny, when
it was Obama, it suddenly was awful.
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself
holding a severed bloody Trump head and nothing happened to
her. I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn
media.
There *was* a backlash. She got dissed by her onw community of
followers and lost sponsers for her name-sake events and stuff
like that. She apologized profusely after that. But then the
matter just went away. I doubt that she would have laughed at
someone else holding a severed head of her own.
It is funny how it is "free speech" one minute, but "hate speech" when someone else does it.
Several years ago, there was a big outcry when someone created a picture of Obama made up as the Joker. "Racists" they said. "Hateful" they said. Then someone produced a picture from a few years earlier of W getting the same treatment.
Same thing with the monkey ears in political cartoons. When it happened to W, it was OK and maybe even funny, when it was Obama, it suddenly was awful.
Same thing with the monkey ears in political cartoons.
When it happened to W, it was OK and maybe even funny, when
it was Obama, it suddenly was awful.
Who's W?
There *was* a backlash. She got dissed by her onw community of
followers and lost sponsers for her name-sake events and stuff
like that. She apologized profusely after that. But then the
matter just went away. I doubt that she would have laughed at
Dumas Walker wrote to DENN <=-b
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself holding a severed
loody Trump head and nothing happened to her.
I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn media.
It is funny how it is "free speech" one minute, but "hate speech"
when someone else does it.
Several years ago, there was a big outcry when someone created a
picture of Obama made up as the Joker. "Racists" they said.
"Hateful" they said. Then someone produced a picture from a few
years earlier of W getting the same treatment.
Same thing with the monkey ears in political cartoons. When it
happened to W, it was OK and maybe even funny, when it was Obama,
it suddenly was awful.
It is either hateful or it isn't. I would say "you cannot have
it both ways" but, obviously, some people sure can.
BoonDock wrote to MRO <=-
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Re: GAB
By: MRO to Ogg on Sat Feb 20 2021 16:12:07
Just a passing thought, but I find the double standard to be amazing. Here's one the occured to me:
Hitler was a bad man. Everyone agrees on that. Everyone pretty much
agrees that the main reason he was bad is because he gave orders that others carried out a0d people died.
I've been following the Cuomo story, and it seems to me that he gave orders and as a consequence around 15 thousand people died.
I don't see a difference quite frankly.
There *was* a backlash. She got dissed by her onw community of
followers and lost sponsers for her name-sake events and stuff
like that. She apologized profusely after that. But then the
matter just went away. I doubt that she would have laughed at
there was a little backlash. she was always a D list celeb. her only talent is being annoying. also remember she fucked with anderson cooper. she did lose that new years eve thing. but that was cnn. those are her own people.
Multiplemiggs wrote to Denn <=-
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Re: GAB
By: Denn to MRO on Fri Jan
29 2021 10:44 pm
I got baned on twitter because I said "I wonder what would happen if I calle someone retarded" a few minutes later I was banned.
here is twitters mission statement.
The mission we serve as Twitter, Inc. is to give everyone the power to creat and share ideas and information instantly without barriers. Our business and revenue will always follow that mission in ways that improve - and do not detract from - a free and global conversation.
I guess they failed, since they suppress one group and let another group plo their tyranny.
Yeah something as simple as that will get you banned, but there's countless posts of people getting shot or beaten to death and breathing their last breath on video. Things like that seem to manage to stay posted.
Just a passing thought, but I find the double standard to be amazing. Here's one the occured to me:
Hitler was a bad man. Everyone agrees on that. Everyone pretty much agrees that the main reason he was bad is because he gave orders that others carried out a0d people died.
I've been following the Cuomo story, and it seems to me that he gave orders and as a consequence around 15 thousand people died.
There was a little backlash but she never got any backlash from twitter,
and she again reposted the severed bloody trump head not to long ago.
there was a little backlash. she was always a D list celeb.
her only talent is being annoying. also remember she fucked
with anderson cooper. she did lose that new years eve thing.
but that was cnn. those are her own people.
she apologized and said she was wrong but still blamed trump
for everything. "trump broke me"
Try looking at it like this:
Trump ignored the pandemic and said it would just go away, now thousands have died as a result.
Re: GAB
By: MRO to Ogg on Sat Feb 20 2021 04:12 pm
There *was* a backlash. She got dissed by her onw community of
followers and lost sponsers for her name-sake events and stuff
like that. She apologized profusely after that. But then the
matter just went away. I doubt that she would have laughed at
there was a little backlash. she was always a D list celeb. her only talent is being annoying. also remember she fucked with anderson cooper. she did lose that new years eve thing. but that was cnn. those are her own people.
And then the dumb idiot reposted the severed Trump head, she will do ANYTHING for attention.
I tried to watch one of her lame shows but it was like watching paint dry.
And then the dumb idiot reposted the severed Trump head, she will do ANYTHING for attention.
There *was* a backlash. She got dissed by her onw community of
there was a little backlash. she was always a D list celeb. her
only talent is being annoying. also remember she fucked with
anderson cooper. she did lose that new years eve thing. but that
was cnn. those are her own people.
And then the dumb idiot reposted the severed Trump head, she will do
ANYTHING for attention.
I tried to watch one of her lame shows but it was like watching paint
dry.
she's very obnoxious. she's rich from it, though. i saw her on tv showing off her house and it had the best of everything. for some reason her net worth is something like 20-35 million. it might be because of real estate.
also i'm looking her up and she was banned from jay leno's tonight show, the view, and banned from a disney show for an acceptance speech for an award. and banned from the apolo for profanity.
And then the dumb idiot reposted the severed Trump head, she will do
ANYTHING for attention.
What Kathy Griffin did was patently unacceptable. I don't care if you hate someone that much; there are lines that you simply do not cross.
** On Saturday 20.02.21 - 09:07, Dumas Walker wrote to DENN:
Same thing with the monkey ears in political cartoons.
When it happened to W, it was OK and maybe even funny, when
it was Obama, it suddenly was awful.
Who's W?
It is either hateful or it isn't. I would say "you cannot have
it both ways" but, obviously, some people sure can.
You mis-spelled "Democrats" in your last sentence... you wrote "some
people". ;-)
There *was* a backlash. She got dissed by her onw community of
followers and lost sponsers for her name-sake events and stuff
like that. She apologized profusely after that. But then the
matter just went away. I doubt that she would have laughed at
someone else holding a severed head of her own.
..I doubt that she would have laughed at
someone else holding a severed head of her own.
She got some backlash. She didn't get "cancelled" like others have.
IIRC, she has sometime since reversed the apology.
BoonDock wrote to MRO <=-
Hitler was a bad man. Everyone agrees on that. Everyone pretty much
agrees that the main reason he was bad is because he gave orders that others carried out a0d people died.
I've been following the Cuomo story, and it seems to me that he gave orders and as a consequence around 15 thousand people died.
I don't see a difference quite frankly.
Vague wrote to BoonDock <=-
Trump ignored the pandemic and said it would just go away, now
thousands have died as a result.
Trump said some things at a rally to the people gathered there to hear him, then those people listening to him stormed the Capitol and people died.
Whatever you decide for one of those cases, you decide for all of them.
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Vague to BoonDock on Sat Feb 20 2021 08:57 pm
Try looking at it like this:
try looking at it the wrong way?
Trump ignored the pandemic and said it would just go away, now thousands have died as a result.
that's absolutely wrong. trump took action right away and was
criticized by your people for doing so.
not many know this, but since january 3rd of that year, the cdc was working on measures to investigating the issue and attempting to
contact china's cdc.
on jan 31 the trump administration declared it a public emergency , did china health restrictions and suspeended entry into the usa for
foreigners who pose a risk of transmitting the virus.
..I doubt that she would have laughed at
someone else holding a severed head of her own.
She got some backlash. She didn't get "cancelled" like others have.
IIRC, she has sometime since reversed the apology.
So.. she's back at it again?
Vague wrote to MRO <=-
LOL Yeah... ok. I'll just believe you instead of reality.
Re: GAB
By: Denn to Multiplemiggs on Sat Feb 20 2021 12:38 am
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself holding a sever bloody Trump head and nothing happened to her.
I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn media.
i'm off twitter and facebook. i only use instagram for posting baby videos and i use telegram to talk with friends. never been happierThe Social Media bug never bit me. I have to laugh about the crap and strange looks I've gotten over the years when someone finds out that I don't have a Facebook or twitter account. I'm on several different tech forums and they have slowed down a lot over the years moving to Facebook groups.
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself holding a
sever bloody Trump head and nothing happened to her.
I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn media.
i'm off twitter and facebook. i only use instagram for posting babyThe Social Media bug never bit me. I have to laugh about the crap and strange looks I've gotten over the years when someone finds out that I don't have a Facebook or twitter account. I'm on several different tech forums and they have slowed down a lot over the years moving to Facebook groups. Even with that said I can't imagine signing up so I can be data mined and censored by Zuckerburg.
videos and i use telegram to talk with friends. never been happier
Re: GAB
By: MRO to Denn on Sat Feb 20 2021 12:12 pm
Re: GAB
By: Denn to Multiplemiggs on Sat Feb 20 2021 12:38 am
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself holding a sever bloody Trump head and nothing happened to he
I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn media.
i'm off twitter and facebook. i only use instagram for posting baby videos and i use telegram to talk with friends. neverThe Social Media bug never bit me. I have to laugh about the crap and strange looks I've gotten over the years when someone
been happier
finds out that I don't have a Facebook or twitter account. I'm on several different tech forums and they have slowed down a
lot over the years moving to Facebook groups.
Even with that said I can't imagine signing up so I can be data mined and censored by Zuckerburg.
I never understood why forums where being left for Facebook. Facebook is an horrid platform for getting a forum-like experience because (wait for it) Facebook is not a Forum.
I never understood why forums where being left for Facebook.
Facebook is an horrid platform for getting a forum-like
experience because (wait for it) Facebook is not a Forum.
Then when they started to censor conservatives I left and
cancelled it. I'm on Parler now sortof, might get off that
as well. I droped facebook several years ago.
I never understood why forums where being left for Facebook.
Facebook is an horrid platform for getting a forum-like
experience because (wait for it) Facebook is not a Forum.
On 2/22/2021 10:55 PM, Denn wrote:
Then when they started to censor conservatives I left and
cancelled it. I'm on Parler now sortof, might get off that
as well. I droped facebook several years ago.
Yeah, I've pretty much just mostly dropped social media when the
harder, largely one-sided, censorship started.
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Vague wrote to MRO <=-
LOL Yeah... ok. I'll just believe you instead of reality.
Lefties have no comprehension of reality. That's why they are so angry all the time.
They want reality to match their Narrative. But reality refuses to cooperate.
..I doubt that she would have laughed at
someone else holding a severed head of her own.
She got some backlash. She didn't get "cancelled" like others have.
IIRC, she has sometime since reversed the apology.
So.. she's back at it again?
Re: GAB
By: Multiplemiggs to MRO on Mon Feb 22 2021 10:48 pm
Re: GAB
By: MRO to Denn on Sat Feb 20 2021 12:12 pm
Re: GAB
By: Denn to Multiplemiggs on Sat Feb 20 2021 12:38 am
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself holding a
I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn media.
i'm off twitter and facebook. i only use instagram for posting baby vi been happierThe Social Media bug never bit me. I have to laugh about the crap and str finds out that I don't have a Facebook or twitter account. I'm on severa lot over the years moving to Facebook groups.
Even with that said I can't imagine signing up so I can be data mined and
Pretty much the same thing here.
I never understood why forums where being left for Facebook. Facebook is an because (wait for it) Facebook is not a Forum.
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
Re: GAB
Re: GAB
By: Multiplemiggs to MRO on Mon Feb 22 2021 10:48 pm
Re: GAB
By: MRO to Denn on Sat Feb 20 2021 12:12 pm
Re: GAB
By: Denn to Multiplemiggs on Sat Feb 20 2021 12:38 am
That's so true Kathy Griffen posted a picture of herself holding a
I got rid of twitter, Twitter has become an open porn media.
i'm off twitter and facebook. i only use instagram for posting baby vi been happierThe Social Media bug never bit me. I have to laugh about the crap and str finds out that I don't have a Facebook or twitter account. I'm on severa lot over the years moving to Facebook groups.
Even with that said I can't imagine signing up so I can be data mined and
Pretty much the same thing here.Facebook is a dud for a replacement for a forum. I guess they figure they might as well get their fingers in the cookie jar though.
I never understood why forums where being left for Facebook. Facebook is an because (wait for it) Facebook is not a Forum.
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
i got a 30 day ban for saying a group of black people jumped
out infront of my car when i was driving 50. this was after
mr i cant breathe. there were riots and cars and buildings
being burned.
also i got a 30 ban for saying 'i didn't care for it' when
referring to a tv show.
shit is ridiculious. i'm done with twitter and fb and
everyone should be.
Arelor wrote to Dream Master <=-au
Re: GAB
By: Dream Master to MRO on Tue Jan 26 2021 11:49 pm
What Facebook and Twitter are doing to "Great Leader" Trump is censorship
sed by a threat to national security.
This is getting old.
If you think it is good Trump got banned feel free to say so, but don't try to justify it by making us believe it is due to some application of their ToS'.
I keep thinking about joining some of these alternative social media, but I lack friends so there is not much of a point.
Yeah, the reason I use Facebook is because I know many people who use
it. I used to use MySpace years ago, before everyone moved to
Facebook. If I don't know anyone who uses it, I don't think there's
much of a point.
Boraxman wrote to MRO <=-
MRO wrote to All <=-
@MSGID: <6010E55A.2443.dove-gen@bbses.info>
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you
might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt insane.
i love it.
I hear someone in America got fired, simply for using GAB! https://www.rt.com/usa/513737-literary-agency-fired-conservative-parler- gab/
It worries me that the rest of the Western world (including Australia) takes its cultural cues from the US. I definately don't want such
action normalised.
Here you go...
No third-world countries would even attempt to do what we caught them doing. And you'll hear about that in just a few minutes.
fuck facebook and people that think what facebook is doing is every
right. facebook is an evil company ran by evil people.
I'm looking for a Twatter replacement, Parler got shut down by the big tech Commies, and I got rid of my twatter account and my Amazon
account.
I'm working on getting rid of Google as well.
Twatter has lost 5 billion so far :)
The real threat to National security is people Like Biden, Harris,
Pelosi and Schummer.
You're right it's the double standard at play here.
What they did to Parler is a damn shame, it's called destroying the competition.
Facebook and twatter were used by antifa to co-ordinate their attacks
on cities, Police and Civilians, yet no back lash for Fackbook and Twitter.
Now everybody is on FB and everybody is shouting their bullshit.. this way I only spot how many people are plain dumb and are useless producers of carbon dioxide through breathing their words out.
I removed about 500+ so called friends from my list, narrowing it to be kept under 200 and hopefully to keep it under 100 this year only to keep it for family and some laggards who I can't either find or convince to use something else.
hollowone wrote to Dream Master <=-
No third-world countries would even attempt to do what we caught them doing. And you'll hear about that in just a few minutes.
Funny to see, here in Europe we call USA the richest of the 3rd
world countries... perhaps that describes some of the qualities
and problematics you're discussing here.
i got a 30 day ban for saying a group of black people jumped out infront of my car when i was driving 50.
I've been using Facebook since 2008 and still don't even have 200 friends on my FB friends list. :P I don't just friend everyone though.. Most of the people on my friends list on FB are people I know in real life.FB has the critical mass of people, which it what makes it so attractive, especially to marketers. It's the "network effect".
Facebook is a dud for a replacement for a forum. I guess
they figure they might as well get their fingers in the
cookie jar though. It's unfortunate that they've had some
degree of success.
It's pretty much the same case with Marketplace.In my area,
I've noticed a huge drop in Craigslist activity in the last
few years, and it's from everyone moving over to Facebook
Marketplace. It's a absolute joke for actually searching for
anything specific and the distance results returns results
for 200+ miles away even though it' set for 10 miles max.
Just reading everyone elses replys and it's unreal how
sensitive they have gotten where you can't even dilike a TV
show. It's like walking on egg shells on what is acceptable
to post without getting banned.
I think if anything, all this heavy handed censorship and
data mining has driven me further away from mainstream
internet. I've been into the BBS scene for about a year now
and it's sure been a nice change, and reliving something I
missed out on in my youth.
Gamgee wrote to hollowone <=-
hollowone wrote to Dream Master <=-
No third-world countries would even attempt to do what we caught them doing. And you'll hear about that in just a few minutes.
Funny to see, here in Europe we call USA the richest of the 3rd
world countries... perhaps that describes some of the qualities
and problematics you're discussing here.
Ahhhhh, yet another Euro-commie-wannabe who knows everything there is
to know about the USA. More than even those who actually live here, somehow.
You're as laughable as the rest of 'em.
Nightfox wrote to hollowone <=-
Re: Re: GAB
By: hollowone to Nightfox on Wed Feb 24 2021 10:35 am
Now everybody is on FB and everybody is shouting their bullshit.. this way I only spot how many people are plain dumb and are useless producers of carbon dioxide through breathing their words out.
I removed about 500+ so called friends from my list, narrowing it to be kept under 200 and hopefully to keep it under 100 this year only to keep it for family and some laggards who I can't either find or convince to use something else.
I've been using Facebook since 2008 and still don't even have 200
friends on my FB friends list. :P I don't just friend everyone
though.. Most of the people on my friends list on FB are people I know
in real life.
Nightfox
---
■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Tracker1 on Tue Feb 23 2021 05:41 pm
i got a 30 day ban for saying a group of black people jumped out infron of my car when i was driving 50.
What's the relevance of them being black? Does being black have any bearing what they did or make any difference?
Nightfox
Why this must be a political discussion and US-centric again..
People drop on Twitter and FB for many differnet reasont without carrying who the dumbass is in the White-House..
US it the 3rd-world country anyway. :>
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Tracker1 on Tue Feb 23 2021 05:41 pm
i got a 30 day ban for saying a group of black people jumped out infront of my car when i was driving 50.
What's the relevance of them being black? Does being black have any bearing on what they did or make any difference?
Re: Re: GAB
By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed Feb 24 2021 08:21 am
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Tracker1 on Tue Feb 23 2021 05:41 pm
i got a 30 day ban for saying a group of black people jumped out infron of my car when i was driving 50.
What's the relevance of them being black? Does being black have any bearing what they did or make any difference?
Nightfox
Yes, the difference is that if they are black you get banned, and if they belong to a mayority target you don't get banned :-P
For that reason I find mewe.com much better, which connects IRC+Usenet
kind of formula that looks more like a soft-landing from Facebook, G+ networks.
Have you tried this one?
PMFJI, have you tried the Fidonet/Telegram project? It brings
(some) Fidonet echos to your smartphone/tablet or desktop via
the Telegram app.
The project is still relatively new. The first echos that were
linked up was around August'20.
It is a way to stay connected to the topical format of echomail,
yet extended the outreach to modern devices, and have the
messages synchronized between all your devices. It's rather cool
For that reason I find mewe.com much better, which connects IRC+Usenet kind of formula that looks more like a soft-landing from Facebook, G+ networks.
What's the relevance of them being black? Does being black have anyYes, the difference is that if they are black you get banned, and if they belong to a mayority target you don't get banned :-P
bearing what they did or make any difference?
Dumas Walker wrote to OGG <=-
George W Bush. Some of his followers, and several of his detractors, referred to him as "W".
Dr. What wrote to Vague <=-
Vague wrote to MRO <=-
LOL Yeah... ok. I'll just believe you instead of reality.
Lefties have no comprehension of reality. That's why they are so angry all the time.
Arelor wrote to Multiplemiggs <=-
I never understood why forums where being left for Facebook. Facebook
is an horrid platform for getting a forum-like experience because (wait for it) Facebook is not a Forum.
Dream Master wrote to Arelor <=-
Agreed. I belong to a couple "groups" on Facebook. One of them is for Siberian Huskies. Every day someone gets on and asks, "I'm going to be getting a Husky puppy in the coming days. What should I expect?" In a forum (phpBB, vBulletin, etc.), you can easily search, while on
Facebook it isn't that easy.
Re: Re: GAB
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Feb 24 2021 02:04 pm
What's the relevance of them being black? Does being black have anyYes, the difference is that if they are black you get banned, and if they belong to a mayority target you don't get banned :-P
bearing what they did or make any difference?
If they weren't would you have specified "a group of white people jumped
out
in front of me" or would you have just said "a group of people jumped out in front of me?"
|01-|03nolageek
The real threat to National security is people Like Biden, Harris,
Pelosi and Schummer.
Why this must be a political discussion and US-centric again..
People drop on Twitter and FB for many differnet reasont without carrying who the dumbass is in the White-House..
Re: Re: GAB
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Feb 24 2021 02:04 pm
What's the relevance of them being black? Does being black have anyYes, the difference is that if they are black you get banned, and if they belong to a mayority target you don't get ban
bearing what they did or make any difference?
:-P
If they weren't would you have specified "a group of white people jumped out in front of me" or would you have just said "a
group of people jumped out in front of me?"
|01-|03nolageek
hollowone wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60365FFC.29068.dove-general@amigacity.xyz>
@REPLY: <6011D46B.47929.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to MRO <=-
MRO wrote to All <=-
@MSGID: <6010E55A.2443.dove-gen@bbses.info>
If you guys are sick of the censorship and the hate on facebook, you
might want to check out gab. it's usuable now that traffic isnt insane.
i love it.
I hear someone in America got fired, simply for using GAB! https://www.rt.com/usa/513737-literary-agency-fired-conservative-parler- gab/
It worries me that the rest of the Western world (including Australia) takes its cultural cues from the US. I definately don't want such
action normalised.
People outside US quite often do not even realize that these issues
exist and do not recognize these new products at all, not even saying adopting them. GAB, Parler are US centric products.
And that's fine, I'd expect more global+local distribution of such services.
What bounces me off GAB/Parler is the formula. It's just yet another Generic Twitter/News Wall kind of presentation of its content which has its problems to tacle, similar to the sources that were inspiration to those services.
I hate this neverending scroll-down experience. I miss groups and topic separation and be able to completely ignore what is not interesting to
me, and disconnect people from topics a bit.
For that reason I find mewe.com much better, which connects IRC+Usenet kind of formula that looks more like a soft-landing from Facebook, G+ networks.
Have you tried this one?
Re: Re: GAB
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Feb 24 2021 02:04 pm
What's the relevance of them being black? Does being black have anyYes, the difference is that if they are black you get banned, and if they belong to a mayority target you don't get ban
bearing what they did or make any difference?
:-P
If they weren't would you have specified "a group of white people jumped out in front of me" or would you have just said "a
group of people jumped out in front of me?"
|01-|03nolageek
what is the fidonet channel?
fidonet.online? i see a bunch of russian stuff
If they weren't would you have specified "a group of white people jumped out in front of me" or would you have just said "a group of people jumped out in front of me?"
...Because everyone's already there. You don't have to worry about people finding it.
i got a 30 day ban for saying a group of black people jumped out
infront of my car when i was driving 50.
What's the relevance of them being black? Does being black have any
bearing on what they did or make any difference?
it's a descriptior. if it was a bunch of white people or chinese people or purple people i would use a descriptor. i dont get all touchy about this stuff because i was raised in a diverse family.
George W Bush. Some of his followers, and several of his
detractors, referred to him as "W".
Not just perjoratively, but to distinguish him from his father, George H.W. Bush.
If Al Gore invented the internet, then why do most web sites start with "dubya dubya dubya"? :P
I can think of two farmers in the area that are specially hard working. One we call "the black farmer" and the other "the bald one". Because
..In a forum (phpBB, vBulletin, etc.), you can easily
search, while on Facebook it isn't that easy.
I hadn't thought of the lack of search (and sticky posts)
before.
I never understood why forums where being left for Facebook. Facebook
is an horrid platform for getting a forum-like experience..
...Because everyone's already there. You don't have to
worry about people finding it.
Facebook, and Social Media in general is actually a fairly
bad platform. Endless scrolling, then when you scroll up,
its different, or it refreshes on you, giving you a
different starting point. If there is something of
interest, its gone later.
The groups are largely unsearchable. If you are on a
Vintage Computer group, and you have a question, you have to
ask.
You can't search the groups history easily to see if there
is a previous thread. So its endless repeat questions. I
find forums like VCFed much nicer. Forums are just better,
period.
The irony is that the Internet is supposed to remember
everything, but on these sites, everything dissappears into
a morass. It's like wandering through a huge milling crowd,
once you leave somewhere, it won't be there when you get
back.
The more I think about it, the more it strikes me just how
BAD they are for what they do. The ONLY advantage that
FaceBook offers is having everythingthrown together in one
place.
Re: Re: GAB
By: Arelor to nolageek on Thu Feb 25 2021 03:09 am
I can think of two farmers in the area that are specially hard working. One we call "the black farmer" and the other "the bald one". Because
Context matters (why does this even need to be said?)
In this village it may be acceptable - I don't know where you're from. This single black farmer might not mind being refered to that way, and that's OK. he suddenly said "you know what, I dont like being called that - could you please call me by my name?" Would the other villagers do so, or would they j say "there's nothing wrong with us calling you 'the black farmer' so we don' care what you think, you fucking snowflake."
That's the difference. :/
|01-|03nolageek
Ogg wrote to hollowone <=-Hey,
Hello hollowone!
Have you tried this one?
PMFJI, have you tried the Fidonet/Telegram project? It brings
(some) Fidonet echos to your smartphone/tablet or desktop via
the Telegram app.
Denn wrote to hollowone <=-
Re: Re: GAB
By: hollowone to Denn on Wed Feb 24 2021 01:52 pm
The real threat to National security is people Like Biden, Harris,
Pelosi and Schummer.
Why this must be a political discussion and US-centric again..
People drop on Twitter and FB for many differnet reasont without carrying who the dumbass is in the White-House..
If you're really in Europe like you said why does it matter to you?
The last thing I wan't to hear is some forgigner comming in like an armchair Quarterback telling us about US politics.
What country are you from?
I did look at MeWe a little while ago. I may have even created an
account and asked people to move over to it. I faced the same problem
as I did with Minds and GAB, namely that I didn't know anyone else
there. As a result, I never really got to understand fully how it
works.
I will give it another try.
The irony is that the Internet is supposed to remember everything, but
on these sites, everything dissappears into a morass. It's like
wandering through a huge milling crowd, once you leave somewhere, it
won't be there when you get back.
If they weren't would you have specified "a group of white people jumped out in front of me" or would you have just said "a group of people jumped out in front of me?"
But the official english-speaking ones are private. You have to
be invited. That is done to avoid spammers. It is not unlike
or purple people i would use a descriptor. i dont get all touchy about this stuff because i was raised in a diverse family.
I just never really hear anyone say something like "a group of white people jumped out in front of my car".
Re: Re: GAB
By: Arelor to nolageek on Thu Feb 25 2021 03:09 am
I can think of two farmers in the area that are specially hard working. One we call "the black farmer" and the other "the bald one". Because
Context matters (why does this even need to be said?)
In this village it may be acceptable - I don't know where you're from. This single black farmer might not mind being refered to that way, and that's OK. If he suddenly said "you know what, I dont like being called that - could you please call me by my name?" Would the other villagers do so, or would they just say "there's nothing wrong with us calling you 'the black farmer' so we don't care what you think, you fucking snowflake."
That's the difference. :/
Hello poindexter FORTRAN!
** On Wednesday 24.02.21 - 05:44, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dream Master:
..In a forum (phpBB, vBulletin, etc.), you can easily
search, while on Facebook it isn't that easy.
I hadn't thought of the lack of search (and sticky posts)
before.
I thought FB "groups" had search capability.
I've just joined (or requested to join) an FB group to try
killed communism in EU if you don't remember and unfortunately I live in the most Trump-alike political environment back in my country as well :>
But the official english-speaking ones are private. You have
to be invited. That is done to avoid spammers. It is not
unlike
i thought you can restrict who posts that's how it is with a
lot of channels i join
..In a forum (phpBB, vBulletin, etc.), you can easily
search, while on Facebook it isn't that easy.
I hadn't thought of the lack of search (and sticky posts)
before.
I thought FB "groups" had search capability.
I've just joined (or requested to join) an FB group to try
facebook is actually easy to search for posts.
The Social Media bug never bit me. I have to laugh about
the crap and strange looks I've gotten over the years when
someone finds out that I don't have a Facebook or twitter
account..
My cousin called me and told me to get on twitter, I posted
Hi to his twitter feed then never used igain for over 4
years, ..
Then Covid-19 came and my company shut down for three
months, I was bored so I started to use it. Then when they
started to censor conservatives I left and cancelled it.
I'm on Parler now sortof, might get off that as well. I
droped facebook several years ago.
facebook is actually easy to search for posts.
I don't see a S)earch option in regular FB user accounts. But
Groups are a different matter. However, even there, the S)earch
George W Bush. Some of his followers, and several of his
detractors, referred to him as "W".
Not just perjoratively, but to distinguish him from his father, George H.W. Bush.
If you're really in Europe like you said why does it matter to you?
I don't care about US politics more than casual interest and some sentiment to my past stay in there. I picked this comment mostly because in the context of "FB sucks because..." reasons why FB sucks are not US driven only and not political only (aside of the fact that political censorship is not US-unique on social media).
The last thing I wan't to hear is some forgigner comming in like an
armchair Quarterback telling us about US politics.
What country are you from?
I come from Poland, and for all who dare to call us commies, we fucking killed communism in EU if you don't remember and unfortunately I live in the most Trump-alike political environment back in my country as well :>
The Social Media bug never bit me. I have to laugh about the
crap and strange looks I've gotten over the years when
someone finds out that I don't have a Facebook or twitter
account. I'm on several different tech forums and they have
slowed down a lot over the years moving to Facebook groups.
Even with that said I can't imagine signing up so I can be
data mined and censored by Zuckerburg.
PMFJI, have you tried the Fidonet/Telegram project? It
brings (some) Fidonet echos to your smartphone/tablet or
desktop via the Telegram app.
No. I hear about Telegram gaining traction for a while.
Still more observing where it goes than willing to adopt,
but connecting it with FIDONET actually sounds interesting
as a test.
Perhaps you just convinced me to give it a try.
MRO wrote to hollowone <=-
Re: Re: GAB
By: hollowone to Denn on Thu Feb 25 2021 10:29 pm
killed communism in EU if you don't remember and unfortunately I live in the most Trump-alike political environment back in my country as well :>
i doubt you know what that is
I come from Poland, and for all who dare to call us commies, we fucking killed communism in EU if you don't remember and unfortunately I live in the most Trump-alike political environment back in my country as well :>
Was never even close to calling Poland communist.
Just seems weird that you would take more of an intrest in our crappy politic's thatn your own.
Nightfox wrote to hollowone <=-
I've been using Facebook since 2008 and still don't even have 200
friends on my FB friends list. :P I don't just friend everyone
though.. Most of the people on my friends list on FB are people I know
in real life.
If Al Gore invented the internet, then why do most web sites start with "dubya dubya dubya"? :P
Ogg wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6037AEB8.52599.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <6037625D.48871.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Hello Boraxman!
** On Thursday 25.02.21 - 19:02, Boraxman wrote to hollowone:
Facebook, and Social Media in general is actually a fairly
bad platform. Endless scrolling, then when you scroll up,
its different, or it refreshes on you, giving you a
different starting point. If there is something of
interest, its gone later.
I don't think it started out that way, but FB seems to have
introduced a randomness to friend's feeds only recently. It
ticks me off that when I seem to remember something posted by a
friend, it's gone when I refresh my own feed. When I go to the
friend's page, there is no S)earch option to find it.
The groups are largely unsearchable. If you are on a
Vintage Computer group, and you have a question, you have to
ask.
I've recently requested to join the BBSing 2.0 group. Hopefully
Sean will have addressed the S)earch matter.
You can't search the groups history easily to see if there
is a previous thread. So its endless repeat questions. I
find forums like VCFed much nicer. Forums are just better,
period.
Telegram groups are pretty good though! <BWG> As a new
experiment, some echos are accessible via Telegram. Telegram's
S)earch is pretty useful.
The irony is that the Internet is supposed to remember
everything, but on these sites, everything dissappears into
a morass. It's like wandering through a huge milling crowd,
once you leave somewhere, it won't be there when you get
back.
Yes.. I find FB to be a mucky foggy mess. Nobody converses
there. Most of the time it is just forwards of other people's
memes. Recently, one person posted a picture they took of the
moon. OK, it has pretty good detail. But here is what the
responses look like:
PART 1: https://susepaste.org/96894281
PART 2: https://susepaste.org/53568919 (the expanded replies)
The brief reply thread is funny, but ephemeral. Just one-liners.
No conversation, really.
PART 3: https://susepaste.org/5176879 (the rest of the roll).
Just a few more +1 and some cheesy emoji-like replies. No
conversation.
If I wanted to revisit that again, I would probably have to wade
through a pile of old posts in sequential order, constant screen refreshes, etc.
The more I think about it, the more it strikes me just how
BAD they are for what they do. The ONLY advantage that
FaceBook offers is having everythingthrown together in one
place.
FB is primarily ok if people just want to "talk" in pictures, it
seems.
It's an easy entry-point to self-promote. A non-bbs way to have
your own personal journal of sorts.
hollowone wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60381928.29163.dove-general@amigacity.xyz>
@REPLY: <6037625D.48871.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
I did look at MeWe a little while ago. I may have even created an
account and asked people to move over to it. I faced the same problem
as I did with Minds and GAB, namely that I didn't know anyone else
there. As a result, I never really got to understand fully how it
works.
I will give it another try.
THis is not advertising, everybody looks for alternatives for his own reasons and I see a blossoming number of them with minor success. I
found MEWE interesting for topics not people, thus it not hurts me that I'd known anybody at the start.
But I already have a few new friends originating from that site and I value conversation with them quite well I must say.
The irony is that the Internet is supposed to remember everything, but
on these sites, everything dissappears into a morass. It's like
wandering through a huge milling crowd, once you leave somewhere, it
won't be there when you get back.
You just raised a very interesting point my friend. I was not thinking about it. Internet remembers everything rule is obviously known to me. THinking about FB remembers everything and gives you a shit back.. is something new to analyze with full mind awareness.
MRO wrote to Ogg <=-
@MSGID: <603828EB.3218.dove-gen@bbses.info>
@REPLY: <6037AEB8.52597.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
Re: GAB
By: Ogg to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Feb 25 2021 08:23 am
Hello poindexter FORTRAN!
** On Wednesday 24.02.21 - 05:44, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dream Master:
..In a forum (phpBB, vBulletin, etc.), you can easily
search, while on Facebook it isn't that easy.
I hadn't thought of the lack of search (and sticky posts)
before.
I thought FB "groups" had search capability.
I've just joined (or requested to join) an FB group to try
facebook is actually easy to search for posts.
Denn wrote to hollowone <=-
@MSGID: <6038B1B3.20562.dove-general@outwestbbs.com>
@REPLY: <60381928.29162.dove-general@amigacity.xyz>
Re: Re: GAB
By: hollowone to Denn on
Thu Feb 25 2021 10:29 pm
If you're really in Europe like you said why does it matter to you?
I don't care about US politics more than casual interest and some sentiment to my past stay in there. I picked this comment mostly because in the context of "FB sucks because..." reasons why FB sucks are not US driven only and not political only (aside of the fact that political censorship is not US-unique on social media).
The last thing I wan't to hear is some forgigner comming in like an
armchair Quarterback telling us about US politics.
What country are you from?
I come from Poland, and for all who dare to call us commies, we fucking killed communism in EU if you don't remember and unfortunately I live in the most Trump-alike political environment back in my country as well :>
Was never even close to calling Poland communist.
Just seems weird that you would take more of an intrest in our crappy politic's thatn your own.
no, you can no longer go on someone's profile and search all their posts. you used to be able to but stalkers abused it.
the streets by people frustrated both by the political instability as well as economic uncertainty in all industries impacted by the pandemic.
Some points sound familiar?
I've also dropped people I haven't interacted with in over a year.
I think there's, maybe, 30 people in my friends list.
The only reason I keep Facebook around is for the groups (I'm in lots of vintage/retro computer groups) and Mom (who can't really learn something else at this point).
... I'm sorry Mrs. Bobbitt, you can't send that in the mail.
Re: Re: GAB
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Feb 25 2021 08:19 am
If Al Gore invented the internet, then why do most web sites start with "dubya dubya dubya"? :P
Al Gore invented the Internet? I didn't get the memo. When was this? ;-)
facebook is actually easy to search for posts.
I must have missed it. Maybe it was staring me in the face and I didn't realise that the search was there.
I do admit, despite being the type of person who writes FVWM configuration
Re: GAB
By: MRO to Ogg on Fri Feb 26 2021 02:00 am
no, you can no longer go on someone's profile and search all their posts. you used to be able to but stalkers abused it.
They've changed some things that I find a bit annoying. I can't even find where to go view my own photo albums that I've posted on Facebook anymore.
Nightfox
BoonDock wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
The way I see it, that critical mass is a dis not ad vantage.
It's kinda like the Darwin awards. If you're too stupid to find it, you shouldn't be here....
Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
If Al Gore invented the internet, then why do most web sites start with "dubya dubya dubya"? :P
Oh, that was a big part of BBSing back when I started out. No one had heard of the internet back then, and most people didn't even understand modems. TO find someone in meatspace that understood what you were talking about when you mentioned online spaces was special. It was like having a shared secret that most people didn't know.We're going back to that.
Yup it's confusing. i think the 'new thing' is hiding features.
have you seen google pay lately? for me to add a bank account there's nothing in my settings anywhere. i have to actually attempt to send someone money and then choose add a new payment option.
took me a long time to figure that out because i only use it to accept payments.
No. I hear about Telegram gaining traction for a while. Still more observing where it goes than willing to adopt, but connecting it with FIDONET actually sounds interesting as a test.
For FB, I always had a policy that "If I'm not friends with you in real life, I'm not friends with you on Facebook."
I think there's, maybe, 30 people in my friends list.
The only reason I keep Facebook around is for the groups (I'm in lots
of vintage/retro computer groups) and Mom (who can't really learn something else at this point).
One of the reasons that I'm keen to go back to the BBS is that it is a distributed, store-and-forward network that is controlled by no central authority. Want to run a private BBS conneced to no-one else (check), want to connect to a network of like-minded people (check), etc...
MRO wrote to hollowone <=-
Re: Re: GAB
By: hollowone to MRO on Fri Feb 26 2021 01:32 pm
the streets by people frustrated both by the political instability as well as economic uncertainty in all industries impacted by the pandemic.
Some points sound familiar?
no
yeah but the isp can shut you down if it wants.
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boondock to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Feb 26 2021 08:13 pm
One of the reasons that I'm keen to go back to the BBS is that it is a distributed, store-and-forward network that is controlled by no central authority. Want to run a private BBS conneced to no-one else (check), wan to connect to a network of like-minded people (check), etc...
yeah but the isp can shut you down if it wants.
bbses are boring and people dont want to use them. that's just a fact.
we dont give the people what they want.
i would rather be at my desk at work watching funny videos
Re: GAB
By: MRO to Nightfox on Fri Feb 26 2021 11:21 am
Yup it's confusing. i think the 'new thing' is hiding features.
have you seen google pay lately? for me to add a bank account there's nothing in my settings anywhere. i have to actually attempt to send someone money and then choose add a new payment option.
took me a long time to figure that out because i only use it to accept payments.
I don't use Google Pay very often, and I had already added a couple payment methods to it. I haven't looked at its configuration settings recently, but it's annoying when they start hiding things.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Boondock on Fri Feb 26 2021 14:58:22
yeah but the isp can shut you down if it wants.
The beauty is I can take my laptop and hook onto any wifi I can access and, beause it's store and forward, the messages get transferred.
This is also why private mesh networks are so important.
we dont give the people what they want.
i would rather be at my desk at work watching funny videos
May I ask what are you doign here? Just curious, since, you know, you think this is boring :-P
what if they record some type of signature that mailers use and filter it from the internet?Another initiative to look at is Nebula (It's on GitHub if you're interested) for creating virual private overlay networks.
Have you tried Telegram? There is no data-mining going on
there. It's fairly open space. Group admins have the power to
block anyone if they become a problem, otherwise you can create
your own groups.
--
https://t.me/aabolins
CHAT - https://t.me/joinchat/Suaubh6lB15XdkGt
COFFEE_KLATSCH - https://t.me/joinchat/R-fzkUrjKxsKKTw7
FIDONET.TELEGRAM - https://t.me/joinchat/TWCQfIK94npmrhs7
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Boondock on Fri Feb 26 2021 19:34:55
what if they record some type of signature that mailers use and filter it from the internet?Another initiative to look at is Nebula (It's on GitHub if you're interested) for creating virual private overlay networks.
I could quite easily see the Nebula software wrapped into the BBS software so that we run on a private network by default.
We're cleverr than "them"...
bbses are boring and people dont want to use them. that's just a fact.
we dont give the people what they want.
i would rather be at my desk at work watching funny videos
i would rather be at my desk at work watching funny videos
BBSing is a hobby these days, and any hobby is only really interesting to the people who are interested in it, and probably boring to anyone else. Even back when BBSes were in their heyday, there were probably people who thought BBSes were boring.
You seem to use your BBS to read and post messages a lot. I use mine for that quite a bit, so I wouldn't say I'd rather be doing something else. There are other things I like doing, but sometimes I like reading & posting messages.
Telegram groups are pretty good though! <BWG> As a new
experiment, some echos are accessible via Telegram.
Telegram's S)earch is pretty useful.
Needing to register with your phone number has put me off
Telegram. I did adittedly register with Signal, but I had
to use a workaround to get the desktop client set up without
using my phone. My phone is too old for QR codes, the
Signal app, etc.
I'm privacy conscious, so I'd prefer a service where you can
just create an account as you could with MS Messenger,
Yahoo, ICQ, etc.
PART 3: https://susepaste.org/5176879 (the rest of the
roll). Just a few more +1 and some cheesy emoji-like
replies. No conversation.
If I wanted to revisit that again, I would probably have
to wade through a pile of old posts in sequential order,
constant screen refreshes, etc.
The realtime nature of FB does allow banter, but that is
quite vacuous. To think you need 1.5GHz with 2G of RAM at
least just to say "nice moon"...
FB is primarily ok if people just want to "talk" in
pictures, it seems. It's an easy entry-point to self-
promote. A non-bbs way to have your own personal journal
of sorts.
And that is the last thing I'm interested in. I find most
of the people I know on FB don't post, the few that do, most
of it is garbage, or it ends up in debates.
I really am on FB mostly just for memes, and for some
special interest groups, but they usually just revolve
around posting an image, another poll.
I think that many of the "solutions" that FB is offering,
were around for ages. It's repackaging in a shinier
interface old ideas.
If Al Gore invented the internet, then why do most web sites start with "dubya dubya dubya"? :P
Al Gore invented the Internet? I didn't get the memo. When was this? ;-)
One of the reasons that I'm keen to go back to the BBS is that it is a distrib
ed, store-and-forward network that is controlled by no central authority. Want
o run a private BBS conneced to no-one else (check), want to connect to a netw
k of like-minded people (check), etc...
The original concepts of being able to speak to people of like mind without an
ne centralised or big-buiness having a say are encapsulated in the technology d mindset. I see it as us taking back control.
Yes.. FB seems "easy" for the masses. But sometimes I feel that
many people that I encounter using a computer shouldn't be using
a computer!
This.
Ogg wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <603A511D.52721.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <6038F3D5.48966.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Hello Boraxman!
** On Friday 26.02.21 - 23:46, Boraxman wrote to Ogg:
Telegram groups are pretty good though! <BWG> As a new
experiment, some echos are accessible via Telegram.
Telegram's S)earch is pretty useful.
Needing to register with your phone number has put me off
Telegram. I did adittedly register with Signal, but I had
to use a workaround to get the desktop client set up without
using my phone. My phone is too old for QR codes, the
Signal app, etc.
The registration is only one-time for the purposes of sending
you a 5-digit code via SMS. You could try some of the virtual
phone number services and have the SMS sent to one of those.
OR.. you could use someone else's phone; but ideally it would be
best to use a phone number that you have control over.
I was also reluctant to "expose" the number of my Blackberry. I
don't use the phone for anything else except mobile data. I was
concerned that I might start getting spam and telemarketer
calls. But in the end, I haven't received a single problem.
As you mentioned, Signal does the same thing upon first use. But
unlike Telegram, Signal forces you to install their app on a
phone for initial use. With Telegram, you can start to use any
app (even desktop) if you like.
One caveat with using the virtual phone number route. If you
want to add the Telegram app on another device later on and have
those two devices synchronized (which is the coolest feature of
Telegram), you have to use the same phone number that you used
when you registered the 1st device.
I'm privacy conscious, so I'd prefer a service where you can
just create an account as you could with MS Messenger,
Yahoo, ICQ, etc.
Privacy conscious here too! But there is nothing private about
using Messenger, Yahoo, icq, etc. You might think it is just
because aliases are allowed? For the freedom of "just create an
account" ..they garnish a lot of info about you based on the
browser you're using, the IP address, etc. ..and monitor your
subsequent activities on parter sites and services.
Anyway.. echos in the fidonet linkup follow the rules of the
moderator. So, if aliases are allowed - then fine. But if a
"real name" is required, then fidonet is not for you anyway.
But the cool thing about the fidonet linkup is that your
messages would appear to come from one specific BBS. Your
geolocation is not disclosed.
PART 3: https://susepaste.org/5176879 (the rest of the
roll). Just a few more +1 and some cheesy emoji-like
replies. No conversation.
If I wanted to revisit that again, I would probably have
to wade through a pile of old posts in sequential order,
constant screen refreshes, etc.
The realtime nature of FB does allow banter, but that is
quite vacuous. To think you need 1.5GHz with 2G of RAM at
least just to say "nice moon"...
I concur. Oh, the irony of it all.
FB is primarily ok if people just want to "talk" in
pictures, it seems. It's an easy entry-point to self-
promote. A non-bbs way to have your own personal journal
of sorts.
And that is the last thing I'm interested in. I find most
of the people I know on FB don't post, the few that do, most
of it is garbage, or it ends up in debates.
I'm still hanging on to it as a kind of phonebook, just incase I
need to reach one of those acquaintences or friends. But now I
am inspired to drop the ones that have never posted to me or
demonstrated that they are even interested in communications.
I really am on FB mostly just for memes, and for some
special interest groups, but they usually just revolve
around posting an image, another poll.
Vacuous, isn't it. :/
I think that many of the "solutions" that FB is offering,
were around for ages. It's repackaging in a shinier
interface old ideas.
Yes.. FB seems "easy" for the masses. But sometimes I feel that
many people that I encounter using a computer shouldn't be using
a computer!
The need to use real names on FidoNet is a bit of a concern for political discussion. The other problem is that I signed up for the BBS with an alias, so it uses the alias by default.
Boondock wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
One of the reasons that I'm keen to go back to the BBS is that it is a distributed, store-and-forward network that is controlled by no central authority. Want to run a private BBS conneced to no-one else (check),
want to connect to a network of like-minded people (check), etc...
The original concepts of being able to speak to people of like mind without anyone centralised or big-buiness having a say are encapsulated
in the technology and mindset. I see it as us taking back control.
Boondock wrote to MRO <=-
The beauty is I can take my laptop and hook onto any wifi I can access and, beause it's store and forward, the messages get transferred.
Boondock wrote to MRO <=-
Another initiative to look at is Nebula (It's on GitHub if you're interested) for creating virual private overlay networks. I could quite easily see the Nebula software wrapped into the BBS software so that we run on a private network by default.
When my home network was down because of an extended power outage, I was able to take my BBS (which is running on a laptop), connect to a coffeeshop wifi, and send/receive packets once a day.Awesome, and exactly what I was talking about.
Isn't that like ZeroNet?No, not as far as I am aware.
If there was a good way to encrypt telnet and still allow the newuser process I'd be happy.Take a careful look at Nebula. Open source, written in Go.
Another initiative to look at is Nebula (It's on GitHub if you're interested) for creating virual private overlay networks. I could quite easily see the Nebula software wrapped into the BBS software so that we run on a private network by default.
Isn't that like ZeroNet?
If there was a good way to encrypt telnet and still allow the newuser process I'd be happy.
Boraxman wrote to Ogg <=-
The need to use real names on FidoNet is a bit of a concern for
political discussion. The other problem is that I signed up for the
BBS with an alias, so it uses the alias by default.
Re: Re: GAB
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boondock on Sat Feb 27 2021 07:49:00
When my home network was down because of an extended power outage, I was able to take my BBS (which is running on a laptop), connect to a coffeeshop wifi, and send/receive packets once a day.Awesome, and exactly what I was talking about.
Boondock
Was never even close to calling Poland communist.
Just seems weird that you would take more of an intrest in our crappy politic's thatn your own.
you can just do a wifi hotspot on your phone
Re: Re: GAB
By: Denn to hollowone on Fri Feb 26 2021 01:30 am
Was never even close to calling Poland communist.
Just seems weird that you would take more of an intrest in our crappy politic's thatn your own.
It's quite easy to figure out, actually. I am in the same situation being an outsider as no one wants, or has enough knowledge, to discuss European politics on Dovenet. That's why you have Canadians, Brits, Poles, Aussies and Spaniards here commenting on US politics.
Not a problem with that BBS-on-a-phone!
Enabling TLS/SSL might be a good first step. I could imagine setting up HSTS on the web server, binkp with SSL, encrypted mail/IRC protocols, and figuring out how to set up telnet as sign-up only.
If there was a good way to encrypt telnet and still allow the newuser process I'd be happy.
Why are we so bent out of shape about security when it comes to BBSes? The majority of our communication is either QWK or FTN. If QWK, the weakest
If there was a good way to encrypt telnet and still allow the newuser
process I'd be happy.
Why are we so bent out of shape about security when it comes to BBSes? The majority of our communication is either QWK or FTN. If QWK, the weakest link is the one BBS that has no security configured. FTN, pretty much the same thing. We may enable TLS, HSTS, etc., is great, but we still have to think about that one system.
On 02-28-21 10:22, Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
I've seen some people on Fidonet say you can use a "real sounding" name
on Fidonet, but it doesn't necessarily have to be your real name.
Re: Re: GAB
By: Denn to hollowone on Fri Feb 26 2021 01:30 am
Was never even close to calling Poland communist.
Just seems weird that you would take more of an intrest in our crappy politic's thatn your own.
It's quite easy to figure out, actually. I am in the same situation being an outsider as no one wants, or has enough knowled
to discuss European politics on Dovenet. That's why you have Canadians, Brits, Poles, Aussies and Spaniards here commenting
US politics.
If you'd like to discuss British, Polish or Spanish politics, I would happily join in. There you can criticise the crappy
decision making of other governments rather than just your own.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Boondock on Sun Feb 28 2021 20:29:11
you can just do a wifi hotspot on your phone
Lots of places around the world that's not possible. They specifically disable tethering, especially pay-as-you-go services.
Boondock
BoonDock
Pedasi/Panama
... I got some powdered water, but I don't know what to add.
Also I think Spain is a lost cause.
There is such a thing as secure telnet, it uses port 994 by default if I remember right. It's been around a long time but it has never caught on. It would be a good thing to secure the ports used by users but of course old telnet clients will never support it.
I recently saw a ticket on the syncterm sourceforge site that made me think it might make it's way into syncterm and/or synchronet.
Also I think Spain is a lost cause.
Just curious, why Spain is a lost cause?
/h1
The only drawback of Spain's policy is the policy of attracting immigrants a refugees.By these actions, Spain devalues the work of its own people.
The only drawback of Spain's policy is the policy of attracting immigrants and refugees.By these actions, Spain devalues the work of its own people.
I recently saw a ticket on the syncterm sourceforge site that made
me think it might make it's way into syncterm and/or synchronet.
What's the difference between secure telnet and SSH?
One of the reasons that I'm keen to go back to the BBS is that it is a distributed, store-and-forward network that is controlled by no central authority. Want to run a private BBS conneced to no-one else (check), want
The trick w/ BBS' is that they do rely on another layer to work (both for end users and interconnection) -- initially POTS and now Internet -- unless you're using amateur radio, but that really has a tough time w/ volumes of users/data and propagation.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Boondock on Sun Feb 28 2021 20:29:11
you can just do a wifi hotspot on your phone
Lots of places around the world that's not possible. They specifically disable tethering, especially pay-as-you-go services.
Boondock
only to the proxy), then connect your computer to the proxy on the phone.
The carrier will only see a connection originating from the phone, which will in truth be the proxy fecthing websites on behalf of the workstation (or whatever have you).
I havent tried it but it sounds doable. There is also people doing ncat tricks in order to use other protocols other than http and https.
As far as I have seen the BBS world is still mainly using telnet.
MRO wrote to Boondock <=-I've been in plenty of crappy places, and most of them have some or other restriction. In the DRC (Democratic Republic of the Congo), being able to tether is a premium feature specifically because some guy will set himself up as a mini ISP by putting his SIM card in a mini WiFi router and and renting out access to all and sundry, sometimes as many as 20 people simultanesouly connected with their phones and using the net.
i'm on straight talk, one of the largest ones prepay ones and i can do
it ---
crappy olitic's thatn your own.Was never even close to calling Poland communist.
I just refered to some lad who called me EU commie.
Just seems weird that you would take more of an intrest in our
Read the other post to find similarities worth analysing.
Also I lived in US for a while and spent there a lot of time to build enough sentiment to your emotion.
Still, I'd like to disconnect it a bit from the discussion with question 'why to drop on FB/Twitter' a bit..
If Al Gore invented the internet, then why do most web sites start
with "dubya dubya dubya"? :P
Al Gore invented the Internet? I didn't get the memo. When was this? ;-)
I droped facebook years ago because friends and family infighting, not because of Politic's.
I droped facebook years ago because friends and family infighting, not because of Politic's.
I quit Twitter because they were suppressing my voice while allowing fithy people like Kathy Griffin hold a bloody severed Trump head, I
came no where close to anything like that.
Twitter has their mission statement that only applies to the leftist.
(The mission we serve as Twitter, Inc. is to give everyone the power to create and share ideas and information instantly without barriers. Our business and revenue will always follow that mission in ways that
improve and do not detract from a free and global conversation.)
I left because of their suppression of speech.
Arelor wrote to hollowone <=-
Re: Re: GAB
By: hollowone to Arelor on Mon Mar 01 2021 03:04 pm
Also I think Spain is a lost cause.
Just curious, why Spain is a lost cause?
/h1
A bunch of small details that, once put together, make things look
bleak. ALso, the general tendency of the country has been to suck more
and more and more since the 16th century or so. We had a bit of an improvement with our transition to Democracy, but nothing to write home about.
--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
- Autonomies... I belive we all have heard about Basque country. They were competin
with IRA for the top terrorist group in the world not so far ago. What is suprising
me is how much Catalonians don't want to be Spain anymore.. I was totally not aware
that Spain is so divided before the recent moves in Catalonia.
Once again, thanks for the explanation and your perspective.
I'm not so worried about the "security" so much, but rather the denial of service. If the traffic is encrypted, then it is a LOT harder to filter and/or block.
Why are we so bent out of shape about security when it comes to BBSes? The majority of our communication is either QWK or FTN. If QWK, the weakest link is the one BBS that has no security configured. FTN, pretty much the same thing. We may enable TLS, HSTS, etc., is great, but we still have to think about that one system.
QWK and FTN does the work of getting messages from BBS to BBS.
There is such a thing as secure telnet, it uses port 994 by default if I remember right. It's been around a long time but it has never caught on. It would be a good thing to secure the ports used by users but of course old telnet clients will never support it.
Again, I fail to see the value. If we are talking about a completely private board, one that has no ability to support QWK, FTN, NNTP, etc., than SSH or Telnet/S make perfectly reasonable solutions. The minute we open the door to outside communication from the BBS is the minute that we are no longer secure. This is why I argue the point. (to the same point, if we are going to encrypt communication, we better ensure that our BBS is completely encrypted as well)
Re: Re: GAB
By: Al to Dream Master on Sun Feb 28 2021 11:04 pm
Why are we so bent out of shape about security when it comes to BBSes? The majority
our communication is either QWK or FTN. If QWK, the weakest link is the one BBS that
has no security configured. FTN, pretty much the same thing. We may enable TLS, HSTS
etc., is great, but we still have to think about that one system.
QWK and FTN does the work of getting messages from BBS to BBS.
There is such a thing as secure telnet, it uses port 994 by default if I remember right.
It's been around a long time but it has never caught on. It would be a good thing to secu
the ports used by users but of course old telnet clients will never support it.
Again, I fail to see the value. If we are talking about a completely private board, one tha
has no ability to support QWK, FTN, NNTP, etc., than SSH or Telnet/S make perfectly reasonab
solutions. The minute we open the door to outside communication from the BBS is the minute
that we are no longer secure. This is why I argue the point. (to the same point, if we are
going to encrypt communication, we better ensure that our BBS is completely encrypted as wel
Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS
Boondock wrote to MRO <=-
Here in Panama the situation is somewhat similar.
Denn wrote to HusTler <=-
Al Gore invented the Internet? I didn't get the memo. When was this? ;-)
There is a video on youtube with Gore saying he invented the Internet,
It might have been taken a litle out of context, I don't know for sure.
I think you'd need certain security if only for access credentials, even if you are not managing sensitive content.
Makes no sense unless you're the one making money off of it.
Enabling TLS/SSL might be a good first step. I could imagine setting up HSTS on the web server, binkp with SSL, encrypted mail/IRC protocols, and
figuring out how to set up telnet as sign-up only.
If there was a good way to encrypt telnet and still allow the newuser
process I'd be happy.
It's quite easy to figure out, actually. I am in the same situation being an outsider as no one wants, or has enough knowledge, to discuss European politics
on Dovenet. That's why you have Canadians, Brits, Poles, Aussies and Spaniards
here commenting on US politics.
If you'd like to discuss British, Polish or Spanish politics, I would happily join in. There you can criticise the crappy decision making of other governments rather than just your own.
I'm currently using Digital Ocean on this end, a little cheaper thanNot a problem with that BBS-on-a-phone!
Or, BBS in the Cloud ... :) AWS here.
Why are we so bent out of shape about security when it comes
to BBSes? The majority of our communication is either QWK or
FTN. If QWK, the weakest link is the one BBS that has no
security configured. FTN, pretty much the same thing. We
may enable TLS, HSTS, etc., is great, but we still have to
think about that one system.
It's like having an ANY:ANY rule in your DMZ.
QWK and FTN does the work of getting messages from BBS to BBS.
There is such a thing as secure telnet, it uses port 994 by
default if I remember right. It's been around a long time but
it has never caught on. It would be a good thing to secure
the ports used by users but of course old telnet clients will
never support it.
I recently saw a ticket on the syncterm sourceforge site that
made me think it might make it's way into syncterm and/or
synchronet.
point I sometimes feel like a foreigner in this place,
so I no longer give a damn. Maybe I consumed too many
cultural products from the US and UK when I was a kid,
dunno.
What's the difference between secure telnet and SSH?
What's the difference between secure telnet and SSH?
SSH provides much more than just a terminal interface.
BBSs (mine at least) don't need to be secured in any special way. It is available to anyone who would like to use it. When communicating by QWK, FTN or in various ways I suppose there may be holes too.. but we want our uses info to be secure?
Though I am considering switching to SES for email relay of the mail
server I just setup... stupid blocklists and bad actors in the smaller
cloud providers.
It's like having an ANY:ANY rule in your DMZ.
While I mostly agree, I'd prefer to stick to secure channels as
much as reasonable. Since Let's Encrypt is free, there's very
little excuse not to do so.
It's worth bearing in mind, that some topics of discussion and
lifestyles are illegal and potentially offenses that carry the
death penalty in some places. While most of us are not in those
countries, it's nice to be able to provide the options for more conversation.
he one his case for Freedom of Speech when he wore the algorithym into court printed on a T-shirt. Judge ruled
I think terminals supporting telnet over secure websockets (wss)
would be a good idea. Could also limit the footprint exposed
on BBS servers if you only need 80 and 443 (assuming you aren't
offering the likes of mail/nntp etc).
I remember when DeCSS code (DVD copy protection) was being printed on shirts... was is that occasion you're talking about, or maybe the DeCSS stuff was just building on something done during the PGP days?Ok, Correcting my faulty memory:
I know that. I had just never heard of "secure telnet" before and wondered what the "secure" part adds onto Telnet.
no they do it because they like to shit on the usa and not think about their craphole country.
If you'd like to discuss British, Polish or Spanish politics, I would happily join in. There you can criticise the crappy
decision making of other governments rather than just your own.
Main reason why I don' discuss Spanish politics mush is because nobody brings them up :-P I tried back in the day in some FIDO
place but nobody is interested to pick the thread.
Also I think Spain is a lost cause. Be have been bent in a self-destruction spree since the end of Big Austrias, with
(officially recognized) fake democracies, fascists, and now a social-communist government. I don't think there is much fixing
it anymore so I don't bring the subject up more. Besides, I feel culturally missaligned with local society by miles, to the
point I sometimes feel like a foreigner in this place, so I no longer give a damn. Maybe I consumed too many cultural products
from the US and UK when I was a kid, dunno.
Well, I'll let you know that I am open to any criticism of the Johnson goverment because, while I live in the UK, it's far from a utopia... socialist or otherwise. All countries are crap holes barring some exceptions such as Singapore and South Korea.
What's the difference between secure telnet and SSH?
SSH provides much more than just a terminal interface.
Nightfox wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I know that. I had just never heard of "secure telnet" before and wondered what the "secure" part adds onto Telnet.
Boondock wrote to MRO <=-
Here in Panama the situation is somewhat similar.
Tethering is possible in the USA; I think cell providers didn't realize it was a thing and started prohibiting free tethering/hot spot usage and charging for it - which is ludicrous. Charging for a service and then charging different amounts for the same data, whether it's from a hotspotted device or your phone.
Makes no sense unless you're the one making money off of it.
What's the difference between secure telnet and SSH?
SSH provides much more than just a terminal interface.
I know that. I had just never heard of "secure telnet"
before and wondered what the "secure" part adds onto Telnet.
Though I am considering switching to SES for email relay of the mail
server I just setup... stupid blocklists and bad actors in the smaller
cloud providers.
A couple key concepts to work with to ensure you don't get on any blocklists:
1) Ensure you have your reverse lookups (PTR) configured to your domain,
2) Ensure you are covered with DMARC and SPF,
3) If you can, and I recommend using SendGrid, utilize DKIM.
Once you have all three, there is a slim chance you'll be on any blacklist.
he one his case for Freedom of Speech when he wore the
algorithym into court printed on a T-shirt. Judge ruled
I remember when DeCSS code (DVD copy protection) was being
printed on shirts... was is that occasion you're talking
about, or maybe the DeCSS stuff was just building on
something done during the PGP days?
All countries are crap holes barring some exceptions such as
Singapore and South Korea.
I think he was maybe mis-remembering the DeCSS Key Shirts,Correct. Zimmerman did his source code as a book which could be OCRd
As to encryption as munitions, I think this was simply relaxed pragmatically by the State Department.LArgely as a result of those two cases IFAIR
I'm a pragmatic Libertarian who wants the minimum reasonable government possible... I've seen too much inside bits over the years. I don't feel that US politics can allow for anything resembling effective government
so that means, imho the less the better for the most part.
As to the common counter, but evil corporations... Corporate power is allowed/created by government, not restricted by it.
To me, it doesn't matter as in general, most foreign governments are
even farther from what I'd like as an ideal than what we have in the US now.
Well, I'll let you know that I am open to any criticism of the Johnson goverment because, while I live in the UK, it's far from a utopia... socialist or otherwise. All countries are crap holes barring some exceptions such as Singapore and South Korea.
I've spent a good amount of time in Singapore. Their insane growth and being an economic center in Asia put millions of people in an island 30 miles wide by 20 miles N/S. The last time I was there it took me 2.5 hours to go 8 miles by taxi. The cost of living is ridiculously high. (I still love it but I hate the traffic)
I would say that the best model for economic prosperity is free-market capitalism which is something we've strayed away from since the late 90s, or perhaps even earlier.
There is a revolving door in all governments, described in America as "The Swamp", between politics, multi-national corporations and the banking industry (retail, primary dealers, etc...). This has proven to be the downfall of our system as corporations and banks have used government as a vehicle to implement MORE bureaucracy which is designed to stifle competition by pricing out smaller businesses. It's called consolidation.
I'm a pragmatic Libertarian who wants the minimum reasonable government possible... I've seen too much inside bits over the years. I don't
feel that US politics can allow for anything resembling effective government so that means, imho the less the better for the most part.
As to the common counter, but evil corporations... Corporate power is allowed/created by government, not restricted by it.
MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-
the problem with the usa since the late 80s is the jobs and work went overseas. companies closed or just invested overseas. it created a
huge ripple effect. meanwhile china took over all the important industries. our us govt allowed all this to happen.
didnt hit the news. it all happened quietly over time.
MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-
the problem with the usa since the late 80s is the jobs and work went overseas. companies closed or just invested overseas. it created a huge ripple effect. meanwhile china took over all the important industries. our us govt allowed all this to happen.
didnt hit the news. it all happened quietly over time.
It hit the local news when a long time company closed and moved their manufacturing overseas.
But the reason that happened was the gov't. The stupid rules and regulations that raised the cost of doing
business and having employees drove them overseas.
the problem with the usa since the late 80s is the jobs and work went overseas. companies closed or just invested overseas. it created a huge ripple effect. meanwhile china took over all the important industries. our us govt allowed all this to happen.
didnt hit the news. it all happened quietly over time.
didnt hit the news. it all happened quietly over time.
That's the problem of worker's unions and minimum wages. The higher the minimum wage, the less attractive it is for businesses to purchase your labour. People who don't understand economics see a minimum wage barrier as a good thing, but it has actually repelled industry away from the West and into the East resulting in an INCREASE of poverty rather than a REDUCTION.
Andeddu wrote to Tracker1 <=-
banking industry (retail, primary dealers, etc...). This has proven to
be the downfall of our system as corporations and banks have used government as a vehicle to implement MORE bureaucracy which is designed
to stifle competition by pricing out smaller businesses. It's called consolidation.
Andeddu wrote to Tracker1 <=-
@MSGID: <60420B45.24630.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <603FAB45.16364.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on
Wed Mar 03 2021 07:29 am
I'm a pragmatic Libertarian who wants the minimum reasonable government possible... I've seen too much inside bits over the years. I don't feel that US politics can allow for anything resembling effective government
so that means, imho the less the better for the most part.
As to the common counter, but evil corporations... Corporate power is allowed/created by government, not restricted by it.
To me, it doesn't matter as in general, most foreign governments are
even farther from what I'd like as an ideal than what we have in the US now.
I would say that the best model for economic prosperity is free-market capitalism which is something we've strayed away from since the late
90s, or perhaps even earlier.
There is a revolving door in all governments, described in America as
"The Swamp", between politics, multi-national corporations and the
banking industry (retail, primary dealers, etc...). This has proven to
be the downfall of our system as corporations and banks have used government as a vehicle to implement MORE bureaucracy which is designed
to stifle competition by pricing out smaller businesses. It's called consolidation.
Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-
@MSGID: <6043C33D.24662.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <6042AAAD.3442.dove-gen@bbses.info>
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Andeddu on Fri
Mar 05 2021 04:03 pm
the problem with the usa since the late 80s is the jobs and work went overseas. companies closed or just invested overseas. it created a huge ripple effect. meanwhile china took over all the important industries. our us govt allowed all this to happen.
didnt hit the news. it all happened quietly over time.
That's the problem of worker's unions and minimum wages. The higher the minimum wage, the less attractive it is for businesses to purchase your labour. People who don't understand economics see a minimum wage
barrier as a good thing, but it has actually repelled industry away
from the West and into the East resulting in an INCREASE of poverty
rather than a REDUCTION.
Now the USA is a joke of a nation with a hilarious trade deficit of
over 500 Bn Dollars vs China. For every one container exported to China with material goods, four are imported. China is slaughtering
America... there really isn't any requirement for them to involve themselves in a physical war.
And to anyone complaining about my "US BASHING"... China are
slaughtering my country too.
So companies want to purchase labour below cost? The minimum wage
enforces that labour can maintain itself. You can quibble about where
that line is, but there IS a line. There is most definately a wage
which is too low.
Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-
@MSGID: <6043C33D.24662.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <6042AAAD.3442.dove-gen@bbses.info>
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Andeddu on Fri
Mar 05 2021 04:03 pm
the problem with the usa since the late 80s is the jobs and work went overseas. companies closed or just invested oversea
it created a huge ripple effect. meanwhile china took over all the important industries. our us govt allowed all this to
happen.
didnt hit the news. it all happened quietly over time.
That's the problem of worker's unions and minimum wages. The higher the minimum wage, the less attractive it is for
businesses to purchase your labour. People who don't understand economics see a minimum wage
barrier as a good thing, but it has actually repelled industry away from the West and into the East resulting in an INCREASE of poverty rather than a REDUCTION.
Now the USA is a joke of a nation with a hilarious trade deficit of over 500 Bn Dollars vs China. For every one container exported to China with material goods, four are imported. China i
slaughtering
America... there really isn't any requirement for them to involve themselves in a physical war.
And to anyone complaining about my "US BASHING"... China are slaughtering my country too.
So companies want to purchase labour below cost? The minimum wage
enforces that labour can maintain itself. You can quibble about where
that line is, but there IS a line. There is most definately a wage
which is too low.
If you had a car, would you rent it out at a price which didn't cover
the maintenance/upkeep? No, of course not. It is not your
responsibility to drop the rental of the car below break-even in order
to allow the person renting it to turn a profit.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
..each time the government touches labor laws, it is just
more reasonable to have less employees and do less work then
to keep the current business volume and make less money for
the same ammount of work.
well i've been in manufacturing for almost 30 years.
my home city was a hub of manufacturing and i saw it all fall apart.
i dont think minimum wage played into any of it.
i think it is just cheaper OVERALL and less regulation overseas.
personally i have seen my employer have to use china for items usa businesses couldnt manufacture or WOULDN'T manufacture due to the "small" amount we needed.
we also were rejected by 2 american polishers for metal parts because our parts were not raw enough and we would need quantities of 250 done every 3 months. china polished our stuff, but we just needed some touchups at 200 usd per part. seems like a deal to me. they said gtfo
There's a fix for that, it's called revolution. Unfortunately, the spoils will be long gone by the time my kid's generation sets things right.
I'm seriously worried about what their generation will experience.
Free market capitalism may work at the start, but its doomed to fail
as people game the system. It is not a "steady state" system.
Also Free Markets is not the same as Capitalism. You can have a free
market system in a non-Capitalist system, and vice versa,
non-free-market Capitalism.
As you yourself said, coporations and banking used the government to
change the market. They were free to do so, and did. Large companies
won't just stick with pure-business, they WILL want to change society,
the "meta-economics" for their advantage. No Capitalists wants a true
free market, so Free Market Capitalism will always seek to undermine
itself.
So companies want to purchase labour below cost? The minimum wage
enforces that labour can maintain itself. You can quibble about where
that line is, but there IS a line. There is most definately a wage
which is too low.
If you had a car, would you rent it out at a price which didn't cover
the maintenance/upkeep? No, of course not. It is not your
responsibility to drop the rental of the car below break-even in order
to allow the person renting it to turn a profit.
Low salaries are a huge reason as to why industry moved overseas... that and far less bureaucracy. It's an a-symmetrical playing field between China and the USA, they don't have the same worker's rights, health & safety, pension & healthcare packages, etc... and the sheer level of bureaucracy makes it expensive and time consuming to expand businesses in the West compared to the East. Even simple things such as planning and building permissions can become a proteracted ordeal, in China you just build shit and make money. They don't carry out enviromental impact assessments or anything like that.
I like the way you summarized the path to doom.
So.. what is the way out?
Re: GAB
By: Ogg to Arelor on Sun Mar 07 2021 08:37 am
I like the way you summarized the path to doom.
So.. what is the way out?
Go into full Sammuel Edward Konkin III mode as soon as the conditions necessary to make a living legally no longer exist I guess.
--
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60447F7A.3472.dove-gen@bbses.info>
@REPLY: <60445AE3.49278.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sun Mar 07 2021 03:43 pm
So companies want to purchase labour below cost? The minimum wage
enforces that labour can maintain itself. You can quibble about where
that line is, but there IS a line. There is most definately a wage
which is too low.
in the usa usually the only people making min wage are retirees and
kids out of school.
min wage jobs are not a lifelong career. it's easy to get decent
paying jobs, especially since covid hit. ---
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-over
@MSGID: <6044A030.21425.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <60445AE3.49278.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Sun Mar 07 2021 03:43 pm
Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-
@MSGID: <6043C33D.24662.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <6042AAAD.3442.dove-gen@bbses.info>
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Andeddu on Fri
Mar 05 2021 04:03 pm
the problem with the usa since the late 80s is the jobs and work went
seas. companies closed or just invested overseaimporta
it created a huge ripple effect. meanwhile china took over all the
nt industries. our us govt allowed all this toeconomic
happen.
didnt hit the news. it all happened quietly over time.
That's the problem of worker's unions and minimum wages. The higher theminimum wage, the less attractive it is for
businesses to purchase your labour. People who don't understand
s see a minimum wagethemse
barrier as a good thing, but it has actually repelled industry away from the West and into the East resulting in an INCREASE of poverty rather than a REDUCTION.
Now the USA is a joke of a nation with a hilarious trade deficit of over 500 Bn Dollars vs China. For every one container exported to Chinawith material goods, four are imported. China i
slaughtering
America... there really isn't any requirement for them to involve
lves in a physical war.
And to anyone complaining about my "US BASHING"... China are slaughtering my country too.
So companies want to purchase labour below cost? The minimum wage
enforces that labour can maintain itself. You can quibble about where
that line is, but there IS a line. There is most definately a wage
which is too low.
If you had a car, would you rent it out at a price which didn't cover
the maintenance/upkeep? No, of course not. It is not your
responsibility to drop the rental of the car below break-even in order
to allow the person renting it to turn a profit.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
The main problem is that leftist governments will usually push minimum wages and other rigths beyond points after which they are
non-sustainable.
I would not rent a car if the maintenance/upkeep cost for it was forcefully rised beyond a reasonable ammount.
And the customer could not afford it if I rised the renting price as to
be able to cover my expenses anyway.
The medical service I work for has been consistently shrinking their business volume because each time the government touches labor laws, it
is just more reasonable to have less employees and do less work then to keep the current business volume and make less money for the same
ammount of work.
MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-
@MSGID: <60442EE1.3464.dove-gen@bbses.info>
@REPLY: <6043C33D.24662.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Andeddu to MRO on Sat Mar 06 2021 06:00 pm
didnt hit the news. it all happened quietly over time.
That's the problem of worker's unions and minimum wages. The higher the minimum wage, the less attractive it is for businesses to purchase your labour. People who don't understand economics see a minimum wage barrier as a good thing, but it has actually repelled industry away from the West and into the East resulting in an INCREASE of poverty rather than a REDUCTION.
well i've been in manufacturing for almost 30 years.
my home city was a hub of manufacturing and i saw it all fall apart.
i dont think minimum wage played into any of it.
i think it is just cheaper OVERALL and less regulation overseas.
personally i have seen my employer have to use china for items usa businesses couldnt manufacture or WOULDN'T manufacture due to the
"small" amount we needed.
we also were rejected by 2 american polishers for metal parts because
our parts were not raw enough and we would need quantities of 250 done every 3 months. china polished our stuff, but we just needed some
touchups at 200 usd per part. seems like a deal to me. they said gtfo
A lot of people at my workplace, on the shop floor, earn minimum wage.
These are people in their 20s, 30s, 40s and older, some with children.
Trump must have done well with your economy if its easy to get a decent paying job.
I don't believe the argument that wages make manufacturing not viable. When a major car manufacturer pulled manufacturing o
The worker is NOT at fault. Any system where people work full time, and c sustain themselves, is broken. The idea that it is the workers that are broken, they working full time should not guarantee some standard of livin they can be a member of society, is reprehensible.
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-
it was also cheaper and made more sense. any of us would move our
company overseas if we made twice the money. especially if we werent making much money to begin with. the govt created that environment.
same shit is going on in california. their economy is fueled by small businesses. what do they do? tax and regulate the fuck out of them.
saw a video of a business owner who said he hasnt turned a profit in a decade. his part time workers are making 50k a year. part time. ---
MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-
well i've been in manufacturing for almost 30 years.
my home city was a hub of manufacturing and i saw it all fall apart.
i dont think minimum wage played into any of it.
i think it is just cheaper OVERALL and less regulation overseas.
Boraxman wrote to Andeddu <=-
So companies want to purchase labour below cost? The minimum wage
enforces that labour can maintain itself. You can quibble about where that line is, but there IS a line. There is most definately a wage
which is too low.
If you had a car, would you rent it out at a price which didn't cover
the maintenance/upkeep? No, of course not. It is not your
responsibility to drop the rental of the car below break-even in order
to allow the person renting it to turn a profit.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
in the usa usually the only people making min wage are retirees and
kids out of school.
min wage jobs are not a lifelong career.
it's easy to get decent paying jobs, especially since covid hit.
Boraxman wrote to Arelor <=-
But under Capitalist, labour is filth, humans are garbage, and don't
even get the same considering that non-sentient equipment does.
If minimum wage stops adequate employment, that is again, a
fault of the system.
The worker is NOT at fault. Any system where people work full time,
and cannot sustain themselves, is broken.
The idea that it is the
workers that are broken, they working full time should not guarantee
some standard of living so they can be a member of society, is reprehensible.
I like the way you summarized the path to doom.
So.. what is the way out?
Go into full Sammuel Edward Konkin III mode as soon as the
conditions necessary to make a living legally no longer
exist I guess.
Go into a McDonalds to see what they decided: Cachiers replaced by kiosks. They decided they didn't need a person to do tha
job.
The worker is NOT at fault. Any system where people work full time, and cannot sustain themselves, is broken.
You claim you are not a communist, then you just effectively state that you are.
it's easy to get decent paying jobs, especially since covid hit.
Ya, the people who are still living in Unemployment don't want to work. They will make less.
i've worked in shops since i was 18. i've been at places with no workers rights, no safety and no health care. breaking fingers was an everyday thing when i was a heat treater. some people didnt even go to the doctor for it. probably because they would test dirty.
the thing is, the chinese do things cheaper and better.
they're just better at everything and that's why they're on top.
it's survival of the fittest.
Hello Arelor!
** On Sunday 07.03.21 - 16:17, you wrote to me:
I like the way you summarized the path to doom.
So.. what is the way out?
Go into full Sammuel Edward Konkin III mode as soon as the
conditions necessary to make a living legally no longer
exist I guess.
I am not familiar with that fellow. Is he anything like Ayn
Rand?
Re: Re: GAB
By: Dr. What to Boraxman on Mon Mar 08 2021 09:48 am
Go into a McDonalds to see what they decided: Cachiers replaced by kiosks. They decided they didn't need a person to do tha job.
Well, this is a predictable outcome.
An engineer with a legion of PLCs can do the job of a hundred people, plus
it's easy to get decent paying jobs, especially since covid hit.
Ya, the people who are still living in Unemployment don't want to work. They will make less.
I thought a lot of companies have been negatively affected by covid, especially restaurants & similar businesses that relied on people coming in to eat. It seemed other types of businesses were also negatively affected in some way. I was laid off at the end of 2019, just before covid got
in mcdonald's case (with my personal experience) the kiosks arent making much of a difference and it's quicker to order right at the line.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Arelor on Mon Mar 08 2021 07:42 pm
in mcdonald's case (with my personal experience) the kiosks arent making much of a difference and it's quicker to order right at the line.
I've ordered from the McDonalds kiosks. I didn't think it was much faster, but I think it's more convenient. Whenever I've used their kiosks (only a few times), it always seemed like I was waiting longer than usual for my order to be ready.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Sun Mar 07 2021 03:39 pm
Free market capitalism may work at the start, but its doomed to fail
as people game the system. It is not a "steady state" system.
Also Free Markets is not the same as Capitalism. You can have a free
market system in a non-Capitalist system, and vice versa,
non-free-market Capitalism.
As you yourself said, coporations and banking used the government to
change the market. They were free to do so, and did. Large companies
won't just stick with pure-business, they WILL want to change society,
the "meta-economics" for their advantage. No Capitalists wants a true
free market, so Free Market Capitalism will always seek to undermine
itself.
I was meaning capitalism in its purist free market form. Obviously it's subject to entropy, like everything else. Late stage capitalism is the result of large corporate interests cornering the market by lobbying politicians, infiltrating government offices and creating laws to
impose their dominion. This can only occur when a country allows itself
to have a LARGE and POWERFUL government. Small businesses, when they aren't hamstrung by government regulations, are nimble enough to chip
away and topple larger corporations as they can adapt to consumer
trends far more quickly and efficently than business monoliths.
---
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Sun Mar 07 2021 03:43 pm
So companies want to purchase labour below cost? The minimum wage
enforces that labour can maintain itself. You can quibble about where
that line is, but there IS a line. There is most definately a wage
which is too low.
If you had a car, would you rent it out at a price which didn't cover
the maintenance/upkeep? No, of course not. It is not your
responsibility to drop the rental of the car below break-even in order
to allow the person renting it to turn a profit.
Wrong. The market should decide the minimum cost of labour, not the government. In a truly free market, there should not be a minimum wage. Your labour is worth only what an employer is WILLING to pay for it. If the salary is too low, then you are free to take your labour elsewhere
and attempt to seek a higher wage.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to MRO on Mon Mar 08 2021 01:21 pm
A lot of people at my workplace, on the shop floor, earn minimum wage.
These are people in their 20s, 30s, 40s and older, some with children.
Trump must have done well with your economy if its easy to get a decent paying job.
that's too bad. here it's usually low lvl retail jobs and fast food
that pays min wage. some fast food places pay more than that now,
also. ---
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to MRO on Mon
Mar 08 2021 01:35 pm
I don't believe the argument that wages make manufacturing not viable. When
a major car manufacturer pulled manufacturing o
I think that, more than labor price, it is all the surrounding
environment that makes hiring difficult for a lot of Westerns.
As I said earlier, it is hard in Spain to take long positions, not
because employees are entitled to a high minimum wage (although that is
a problem for some sectors), but because things like:
* If an employee is proven to be a burden, it is hard to sack him. I
know of employees involved in incidents where people died and they
tried to hide them from management, and management won't sack them
because it is too expensive and the lawyer money required to get a
"free firing" is just too much trouble. If you are starting a new firm, you know you are marrying to any employee you recruit, so you don't recruit anybody unless you 100% need it - or go Konkin style. * The Spanish government is changing the law all the time, so if you hire somebody for X EUR per hour today, tomorrow they may change the law so
you have to pay X * 1.5, or so you have to spend Y in workplace
security audits or god knows what. This is, you cannot plan to run your company assuming you are going to hace a certain known ammount of
expenses in manpower because they may show up and screw you and now you have increased operation costs and you can't get rid of them. So what
do you do? You hire nobody uunless you absolutely have to.
* Lots of sectors have unionized in what can only be described as
mafias. It is not that the unions are going on strikes against you if
they don't like your firm, it is that they are going to screw any
worker in that industry that does not support the strike too. This is
why certain importers/exporters refuse to use Catalonian ports for
loading or unloading wares, for example.
* Sporadic jobs are impossible in Spain. You cannot pay 15 bucks to the village drunktard in Spain in order for him to help you unload a truck
- the drunktard is expected to file up as a self-employed individual,
for about 300 eur that month, or you are expected to give him a
contract and pay about 400 EUR to the administration. For 15 bucks.
Something I have learnt is that big companies like reliability more
than they do money. When I speak to bean counters about hireability in Spain, the above pop up more often than labor price.
IB Joe wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60464AFA.117552.dove-gen@vert.synchro.net>
On 08 Mar 2021, Boraxman said the following...
The worker is NOT at fault. Any system where people work full time, and c sustain themselves, is broken. The idea that it is the workers that are broken, they working full time should not guarantee some standard of livin they can be a member of society, is reprehensible.
Yes they are... They should be trained to elevate themselves.... not
be held out as victims... When raise the minimum wage to 15 an hour...
the guys who had some skill and were making 15 want 20... the guys who were making 20 want 25... and so on. Now the cost of things rise
because of labor costs... the happy meal you use to buy for 5 bucks not cost 15... and it's perpetuated ... 15 bucks an hour will become the
new poor mans wage...
Companies will have to find ways to cut costs ... find computer systems
to replace hourly workers. Offshore some of these costs... hire family over strangers.... even better hire some of the people entering the US right now over the southern boarder because there is about to be a glut
of unskilled labor about to compete with citizens ability to earn a
decent living...
All hale Joe Biden... get the masses talking about $15 an hour when
they are all bout to loose their jobs...
Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Boraxman wrote to Andeddu <=-
So companies want to purchase labour below cost? The minimum wage
enforces that labour can maintain itself. You can quibble about where that line is, but there IS a line. There is most definately a wage
which is too low.
Correct. But that should be set by the market - not by a bureaucrat
who knows nothing.
If you had a car, would you rent it out at a price which didn't cover
the maintenance/upkeep? No, of course not. It is not your
responsibility to drop the rental of the car below break-even in order
to allow the person renting it to turn a profit.
Correct again. But now you are talking about the market, which has nothing to do with minimum wage laws.
You have a product that costs X to make. You need to make a profit to grow your company. So you need to sell it at X+P. If the market will
not buy it at that price, you look for a way to sell it for less, or
you don't sell it.
Conversely, if I'm an employer and I have a job that needs to be done,
I set a price, say $5, for the job. If no one takes the job at that price, then I need to decide if it's worth it to me to pay more, or not have the job done. But if someone does take the job, then the job is worth $5 - regardless of what any minimum wage law says.
If someone will do the job for $10, but the gov't says that I **must**
pay $15, then I will do the same thing: decide if it's worth it to get the job done, or not have the job done.
Go into a McDonalds to see what they decided: Cachiers replaced by kiosks. They decided they didn't need a person to do that job.
Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Boraxman wrote to Arelor <=-
But under Capitalist, labour is filth, humans are garbage, and don't
even get the same considering that non-sentient equipment does.
Ahhh.. Channeling Marx, I see. He's as wrong today as he was in his
day.
Only Communism/Socialism treats humans as garbage. Case in point:
China.
If minimum wage stops adequate employment, that is again, a
fault of the system.
Yes, it's a fault of the quasi-socialist system that we currently have.
The worker is NOT at fault. Any system where people work full time,
and cannot sustain themselves, is broken.
You claim you are not a communist, then you just effectively state that you are.
You are claiming that a system, where both the worker and company both **voluntarily** agree to do something is BROKEN.
The idea that it is the
workers that are broken, they working full time should not guarantee
some standard of living so they can be a member of society, is reprehensible.
As an employer, how much someone *needs* to make has no bearing on how much I should pay.
Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Andeddu on Sat
Mar 06 2021 07:39 pm
well i've been in manufacturing for almost 30 years.
my home city was a hub of manufacturing and i saw it all fall apart.
i dont think minimum wage played into any of it.
i think it is just cheaper OVERALL and less regulation overseas.
personally i have seen my employer have to use china for items usa businesses couldnt manufacture or WOULDN'T manufacture due to the "small" amount we needed.
we also were rejected by 2 american polishers for metal parts because our parts were not raw enough and we would need quantities of 250 done every 3 months. china polished our stuff, but we just needed some touchups at 200 usd per part. seems like a deal to me. they said gtfo
Low salaries are a huge reason as to why industry moved overseas...
that and far less bureaucracy. It's an a-symmetrical playing field
between China and the USA, they don't have the same worker's rights, health & safety, pension & healthcare packages, etc... and the sheer
level of bureaucracy makes it expensive and time consuming to expand businesses in the West compared to the East. Even simple things such as planning and building permissions can become a proteracted ordeal, in China you just build shit and make money. They don't carry out enviromental impact assessments or anything like that.
---
MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Andeddu to MRO on Sun Mar 07 2021 06:33 pm
Low salaries are a huge reason as to why industry moved overseas... that and far less bureaucracy. It's an a-symmetrical playing field between China and the USA, they don't have the same worker's rights, health & safety, pension & healthcare packages, etc... and the sheer level of bureaucracy makes it expensive and time consuming to expand businesses in the West compared to the East. Even simple things such as planning and building permissions can become a proteracted ordeal, in China you just build shit and make money. They don't carry out enviromental impact assessments or anything like that.
i've worked in shops since i was 18. i've been at places with no
workers rights, no safety and no health care. breaking fingers was an everyday thing when i was a heat treater. some people didnt even go to
the doctor for it. probably because they would test dirty.
the thing is, the chinese do things cheaper and better.
they're just better at everything and that's why they're on top.
Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Arelor on Mon
Mar 08 2021 07:42 pm
in mcdonald's case (with my personal experience) the kiosks arent making much of a difference and it's quicker to order right at the line.
I've ordered from the McDonalds kiosks. I didn't think it was much faster, but I think it's more convenient. Whenever I've used their
kiosks (only a few times), it always seemed like I was waiting longer
than usual for my order to be ready.
As an employer, how much someone *needs* to make has no bearing on how much I should pay.
That makes no sense. If you were hiring a car, how much the car hire compan *needs* to recuperate in order to maintain the care DOES have bearing. Labo isn't different.
You are renting a human being, the cost of maintenance IS your concern. If you believe it shouldn't be, then you have no business renting people. Go r a business on your own.
They moves overseas because the laws allowed that to happen. We create a system which gives them the freedom to do so.
If these firms were democratically run, they would NOT be moving overseas. is not inevitable that jobs go overseas.
The worker is NOT at fault. Any system where people work full time, sustain themselves, is broken. The idea that it is the workers that broken, they working full time should not guarantee some standard of they can be a member of society, is reprehensible.
A house in my city, a typical house like the one my warehouse worker dad purchased, now might cost a million dollars.
Good luck arguing that wages shouldn't go up. That alone just
highlights the absurdity of the "wages are too high" argument. They aren't. They aren't high enough.
No, workers are not at fault. Our system enables parasitic property specuvestors to hoard property, we increase immigratoin to drive down wages and drive up property prices so they can make PASSIVE income doing nothing but attending auctions, and we have the audicity to then
question worker Joe, who just wants to be able to support his wife and kids. No, the spivs that drove up the price of housing from 3x years wages to 11x yearly wages, no, they are golden. All the other profit seekers, ticket clippers, middle men, speculators, the hedge funds, they are just fine, aren't they? Better to have children grow up with lack
of opportunity and precarious housing arrangments, than have some speculator maybe "only" make 2 million flipping properties instead of 10 million.
We had "conservatives" argue that wages were too high, but when the Labor thought about winding back tax benefits which subsidise property investors, they cried out in pain, because house prices might actually
not go up. They wanted to both pillor working people who wanted a
decent wage AND argue that the very things they need should increase in price.
I've ordered from the McDonalds kiosks. I didn't think it was much
faster, but I think it's more convenient. Whenever I've used their
kiosks (only a few times), it always seemed like I was waiting longer
than usual for my order to be ready.
where you have used them is there some type of line structure? because everyplace i've seen them, even in other states, it's not setup smart. it's in the back and turned. so you visit the kiosk when it's not occupied. you cant line up.
right now mcdonalds is a well oiled machine with the people it has. no kiosk is going to replace that.
the thing is, the chinese do things cheaper and better.
they're just better at everything and that's why they're on top.
The Chinese do better? You serious?
Yes they are... They should be trained to elevate themselves.... not be held out as victims... When raise the minimum wage to 15 an hour... the guys who had some skill and were making 15 want 20... the guys who were making 20 want 25... and so on. Now the cost of things rise because of labor costs... the happy meal you use to buy for 5 bucks not cost 15... and it's perpetuated ... 15 bucks an hour will become the new poor mans wage...
Go into a McDonalds to see what they decided: Cachiers replaced by kiosks. They decided they didn't need a person to do tha job.
Well, this is a predictable outcome.
An engineer with a legion of PLCs can do the job of a hundred people, plus
in mcdonald's case (with my personal experience) the kiosks arent making much of a difference and it's quicker to order right at the line.
@VIA: AMSTRAD
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@TZ: 1000
Re: Re: GAB
By: IB Joe to Boraxman on Mon Mar 08 2021 09:04 am
Yes they are... They should be trained to elevate themselves.... not b held out as victims... When raise the minimum wage to 15 an hour... the who had some skill and were making 15 want 20... the guys who were maki want 25... and so on. Now the cost of things rise because of labor cos the happy meal you use to buy for 5 bucks not cost 15... and it's perpetuated ... 15 bucks an hour will become the new poor mans wage...
Absolutely. When a minimum wage is implemented and enforced by
government, inflation rises causing goods and services to increase in costs. The idea that the worker has ANY more purchasing power is an illusion. The reality is that they have less purchasing power and can purchase fewer goods and services. This causes a spiral effect where
fewer people are employed to produce fewer goods resulting in even
higher prices. Eventually companies either collapse or relocate to
places where there is not a minimum wage requirement and end up leaving mass unemployment in their wake. ---
■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC
and PCW!
In the end of the day people pays for results.
If you pay 15 bucks in order to get a hay truck unloaded,
you are usually not worrying too much about how that money
you are paying is going to be spent afterwards, ...
In fact if there is a big capitalist myth is that effort
matters. Effort does not matter. Nobody ever buys "effort".
They buy results. In fact you can track criticism to this
idea to capitalist books from the mid 2oth century already.
It's basically the same here. Their kiosks are in the front area, but behind where everyone lines up for the counter. When I've been there, there has always been at least one kiosk free to order from.
Denn wrote to HusTler <=-
@TZ: c1a4
Re: Re: GAB
By: HusTler to Nightfox on Fri Feb 26 2021 07:44
am
If Al Gore invented the internet, then why do most web sites start
with "dubya dubya dubya"? :P
Al Gore invented the Internet? I didn't get the memo. When was this? ;-)
There is a video on youtube with Gore saying he invented the
Internet, It might have been taken a litle out of context, I don't
know for sure.
Tracker1 wrote to Andeddu <=-
@TZ: fe20
On 3/3/2021 6:04 PM, Andeddu wrote:
All countries are crap holes barring some exceptions such as
Singapore and South Korea.
Unless you like to smoke weed ;-)
MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-
@TZ: 4168
Re: Re: GAB
By: Andeddu to Tracker1 on Fri Mar 05 2021 10:43 am
the problem with the usa since the late 80s is the jobs and work
went overseas. companies closed or just invested overseas. it
created a huge ripple effect. meanwhile china took over all the
important industries. our us govt allowed all this to happen.
MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-
@TZ: 4168
Re: Re: GAB
By: Dr. What to MRO on Sat Mar 06 2021 09:55 am
MRO wrote to Andeddu <=-
same shit is going on in california. their economy is fueled by
small businesses. what do they do? tax and regulate the fuck out of
them. i saw a video of a business owner who said he hasnt turned a
profit in a decade. his part time workers are making 50k a year.
part time.
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
@TZ: 1000
Re: Re: GAB
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Sat Mar 06
2021 09:19 am
Our kids are going to have a tough time regardless of whether the
nation 'defaults' or attempts to repay the national debt.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
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@REPLY: <60472E94.49354.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Dr. What on
Tue Mar 09 2021 08:04 am
As an employer, how much someone *needs* to make has no bearing on how much I should pay.
That makes no sense. If you were hiring a car, how much the car hire compan *needs* to recuperate in order to maintain the care DOES have bearing. Labo isn't different.
You are renting a human being, the cost of maintenance IS your concern. If you believe it shouldn't be, then you have no business renting people. Go r a business on your own.
In the end of the day people pays for results.
If you pay 15 bucks in order to get a hay truck unloaded, you are
usually not worrying too much about how that money you are paying is going to be spent afterwards, because it is not your business. You
usually don't worry too much about social conditionants that may
involve the employee unless they affetc you.
Unlading a truck is worth 15 bucks because that is what you are willing
to pay. It does not matter much if it is Hercules himself doing the downloading (and who plans to eat three boars whole later) or if it is
a skinny midget that is going to eat a bowl of rice afterwards.
Obviously, if Hercules wants to afford his lifestyle he is going to
have to get another job (else get used to rice).
In fact if there is a big capitalist myth is that effort matters.
Effort does not matter. Nobody ever buys "effort". They buy results. In fact you can track criticism to this idea to capitalist books from the
mid 2oth century already.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Tue Mar 09 2021 08:06 am
They moves overseas because the laws allowed that to happen. We create a system which gives them the freedom to do so.
If these firms were democratically run, they would NOT be moving overseas. is not inevitable that jobs go overseas.
My experience with cooperative groups is that they are very good at shooting themseelves in their feet as nicely as regular companies.
If _everything_ was a cooperative group you'd soon have the same issues when economies went down. WHen time came to cut corners, they would
choose this or that provider because it is more affordable, and if the cheaper provider is foreigner because of "reasons" then you would stop doing business with the locals. ANd the locals would do the same to
you.
IB Joe wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60478F78.117595.dove-gen@vert.synchro.net>
On 09 Mar 2021, Boraxman said the following...
The worker is NOT at fault. Any system where people work full time, sustain themselves, is broken. The idea that it is the workers that broken, they working full time should not guarantee some standard of they can be a member of society, is reprehensible.
Yes it is.... If they want a higher wage they should gain the skill set that pays them the wage they want. Most minimum wage jobs were not created to sustain life... Teens and others need these jobs to build a foundation... Now they'll be gone. Business owners will not hire a
teen if they have to pay the kid a lot of money. Fast food places will automate processes... others will employ family and illegals over
none...
Doing a quick search with DuckDuckGo I found with in seconds several articles showing the labor costs for a small business can be up to 70%
of its operating costs. It is small business that employs a lot of
people in the world... US ... Large businesses who can afford higher
wages and they also have the ability to maneuver bureaucratic
red-tape... Love watching small businesses suffer and fail.... This is
why large businesses lobby in Washington to implement a lot of these policies, high wages and regulations, so that competition cannot get a start.... and as a result they keep their power...
A house in my city, a typical house like the one my warehouse worker dad purchased, now might cost a million dollars.
Great news... U can move... The real estate market is a local market, houses being sold in California have no influence house prices in
Texas, or the price of homes in Austin have no, little to none, in Brownsville.
People are moving every day from cities and states because of costs...
My home state... Florida ... You could live in a large city center
or... live where I have ... Cystal River in Citrus county... you can
still buy a place for under a 100,000 easy... If you don't like the
cost of living where you live... MOVE... If your a Business owner and
your business is under attack with wage costs, taxation and
regulations... Move... move to a different state or different country.
Boraxman... no one owes you a thing...
Good luck arguing that wages shouldn't go up. That alone just
highlights the absurdity of the "wages are too high" argument. They aren't. They aren't high enough.
No is arguing that... I just think it should be free market that sets wages... not an artificial amount set by the government... If you want
to bring yourself out of poverty add to your skills... With no effort
at all its easy to find honest articles showing, and there is, correlations in unemployment rising with the increase labor costs... Moreover, there also is a is a correlation with taxation and
unemployment as well....
We saw the best economy in US history because Trump lowered taxes for everyone... giving more money to the people... and the single most important things he did was cut regulations... Now small businesses can start and compete in a free market...
No, workers are not at fault. Our system enables parasitic property specuvestors to hoard property, we increase immigratoin to drive down wages and drive up property prices so they can make PASSIVE income doing nothing but attending auctions, and we have the audicity to then
question worker Joe, who just wants to be able to support his wife and kids. No, the spivs that drove up the price of housing from 3x years wages to 11x yearly wages, no, they are golden. All the other profit seekers, ticket clippers, middle men, speculators, the hedge funds, they are just fine, aren't they? Better to have children grow up with lack
of opportunity and precarious housing arrangments, than have some speculator maybe "only" make 2 million flipping properties instead of 10 million.
Got to love the American way.... Free enterprise baby!!!! Don't like things, change it... you can be the next Opra, not with your attitude,
be a victor not a victim ....
As the current administration floods the labor force with cheep 3rd
world labor I do not see a bright future for the average American as
these people are probably willing to do that work for less money...
And even worse ... current administration is willing to print trillion
and trillions of US dollars and only give it to the top 1%... People
need to look at the bill that was just passed... less than 10% going to the American people and over 90% going elsewhere... The party that use
to have J.F.K. in it is a horse of a different color now... Divide and concur...
We had "conservatives" argue that wages were too high, but when the Labor thought about winding back tax benefits which subsidise property investors, they cried out in pain, because house prices might actually
not go up. They wanted to both pillor working people who wanted a
decent wage AND argue that the very things they need should increase in price.
Nobody argued that... most conservatives... in the US anyway... just
want a constitutional government... Limited federal reach... 10'th amendment should be respected and someone needs to bitch slap people in Washington...
Liberal seem to want to change the outcomes... someone goes to school years and years and years to become a doctor, lawyer and engineer...
They do this to elevate themselves and their families.... Liberals want
to take the spoils of their efforts and redistribute it to people who
have no skin in the game....
Conservatives work under the exact opposite thinking... lets implement
the right policies so that it's a level playing field and that anyone
who wants to grab at the gold ring can.... and if you succeed I am
proud of you... not envious of you... proud.
The swamp is deep in Washington... people there seem to want to enrich themselves and their families before they even care about you... Hunter Binden is a prime example...
I believe we're living in a post constitutional world right now. I
also believe we are not that far from a catastrophic market crash if Washington doesn't fix what they are doing.... I mean this... Never
mind $15 and hour... U'll have to resort to giving BJs just to get something warm in your stomach ...
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to MRO on Tue
Mar 09 2021 08:07 am
the thing is, the chinese do things cheaper and better.
they're just better at everything and that's why they're on top.
The Chinese do better? You serious?
At some things, perhaps it's true. Semiconductor manufacturing is one area - Companies have set up large chip fabs in China, and they're good
at producing computer chips. TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation) has chip fabs there, and I believe Intel does too (my understanding is that Intel manufacturers wafers in the US and other countries but sends the wafers to China to produce processors from the wafers).
Also, a while ago, I saw a video on YouTube showing a fully automated
ship port in China. Workers can simply deliver cargo boxes to the
port, and machines automatically sort it and get the cargo onto the correct ship when the ships dock to pick them up; it's a similar
process when ships drop off cargo.
But, in all reality, what really is the value of a dollar?
The labour theory of value is a Marxist idea, yet in Capitalist socities, people contantly talk about the "value of labour".
Do you not find that strange? I'm a salaried employee. What I earn is fixed, I'm not paid based on what I've produced, but
fixed rate to be here, and do what the business needs. I'm clearly rented.
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
An engineer with a legion of PLCs can do the job of a hundred people,
plus PLCs don't vote or unionize or are granted rights by the
government that you can't afford.
Incidental anecdote, I know of an engineer who optimized factories
for a living via automation. He once was called to China for automating
a firm - I think it was an excavations firm. In the end they reached
the conclussion that it was not worth the effort to automate anything there. It was better to buy three thousand shovels for three thousand employees than purchase fifty bulldozers for fifty employees because workers there are dirty cheap and, most important, they don't cause trouble.
I hold the impopular opinion that the way to deal with lowering
standards of living is to stop producing people. The reason life is getting so hard as of late is that there is barely any need to satisfy
in society that somebody else is not satisfying already. This makes it nearly impossible to build a startup or get a job unless you are outstanding at what you do, or are willing to make massive sacrifices.
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
I think he is actually on the other end of the spectrum, very close to Spanish style Fascism.
Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-
I thought a lot of companies have been negatively affected by covid, especially restaurants & similar businesses that relied on people
coming in to eat. It seemed other types of businesses were also negatively affected in some way.
I was laid off at the end of 2019,
just before covid got serious, and I'm thankful I found another job.
Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
I don't believe "the market" should always set prices. It is not a
rule that the market is the optimal means to do so.
It was feasible to have labour do that job for decades, so what
changed?
As for the product, why are you entitled to sell it? This is a wierd feature of Capitalist ideology, that an entrepreneur is ENTITLED to
sell product and buyers are ENTITLED to buy it.
Lets say product X, because of labour involved, cannot be sold under
$Y. Then if there is no market for X at $Y, then X is simply not a feasible product. Period.
We in the West EXPECT to be able to buy
complex electronics at bargain prices, low enough to be able to change them a year, but we have to use almost slave labour in order to do so.
Why are we entitled to this?
See, we don't want to wear the TRUE cost, so in order to get the
lifestyle that we believe we are entitled to, because it is marketed to us, we shift these costs elsewhere. I can by a polo top at a
department store in Melbourne for $5. Why should it be that cheap?
It's made that cheap, because the actual cost has been hidden,
obfuscted.
Arelor wrote to Ogg <=-
Konkin makes Rand look tame.
His idea is that laws are not ethically superior because they were
enacted by some politician who got there because he managed to fool the most voters. Therefore, breaking such laws is not necessarily immoral
and it may even be desirable it such regulations are blatantly stupid.
He also had this idea that underground economy could overtake surface economy . Like during Spanish Francoism, in which employers would negotiate with illegal unions instead of official ones, and people
would purchase food in the black market instead of the surface one, because the surface one was controlled by the Phalanx and mostly inoperative.
"Thanks for this Thompson, Santa! But my parents are pacifists. They
would kill me if they found out I have it!"
"And there is no contradiction in that. Ho, ho, ho!"
(The tale is actually quite bad but the idea is hillarious).
MRO wrote to Arelor <=-
in mcdonald's case (with my personal experience) the kiosks arent
making much of a difference and it's quicker to order right at the
line. ---
Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-
I've ordered from the McDonalds kiosks. I didn't think it was much faster, but I think it's more convenient. Whenever I've used their
kiosks (only a few times), it always seemed like I was waiting longer
than usual for my order to be ready.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
In fact if there is a big capitalist myth is that effort matters.
Effort does not matter. Nobody ever buys "effort". They buy results. In fact you can track criticism to this idea to capitalist books from the
mid 2oth century already.
It's interesting to see how interconnected our economy is and how lean
our production pipeline is. The Great Toilet Paper Shortage of 2020 was
a great example.
That's good. My wife and I are both working for companies that were "necessary" according to the Tyrant... er.. Governor who rules over...er.. governs our state. So we've been working the whole time.
I've ordered from the McDonalds kiosks. I didn't think it was much
faster, but I think it's more convenient. Whenever I've used their
kiosks (only a few times), it always seemed like I was waiting
longer than usual for my order to be ready.
Perception. When there were no kiosks, you could look to see how many people were ahead of you. With people ordering from kiosks (and online, and at the drive-thru), it's harder to assess where you are in the line.
product. Period. We in the West EXPECT to be able to buy complex electronics at bargain prices, low enough to be able to change them a year, but we have to use almost slave labour in order to do so. Why are we entitled to this?
... I never ever saw anything so seriously dividing people between
these two political movements as recent race winner and retired
president over the way your (American) election system works.
I quite frankly don't believe Trump has a real come back change at
the top level in politics.. I think he'll just retire and come back
to family business and Republican idea needs to find a new leader
if there is a will to overcome Biden in time.
All that lament for Trump must be temporary or is unusually naive
over my personal comprehension.
Minimum wage is lower in the states, and many rely on tips if they work in hospitality. Here the minimum is higher, which is perhaps why more jobs can be set at the minimum wage. A factor floor worker doesn't rely on tips, becaues they could never get them.
the thing is, the chinese do things cheaper and better.
they're just better at everything and that's why they're on top.
The Chinese do better? You serious?
in mcdonald's case (with my personal experience) the kiosks arent making much of a difference and it's quicker to order right at the line.
It's making a difference here, especially with Covid. A few months ago, I went to McDs when you were still allowed to go inside and they refused to serve anyone at the counter, we had to order through the kiosk only. Prior to that, they dropped their staff noticeably so that only one till at the counter was in operation... the queue was ridiculous so most people opted for the kiosk instead.
I don't know how many people actually buy a new phone every year, but usuall tend to keep a phone for about 4 or more years before I might want to replac it. Technology usually gets cheaper over time, but smart phones have actual become more expensive. Many of the top-end smart phone can coast $1000 or more, and there are also plenty of great phones that cost $700 or more. I'm not going to want to spend that much on a phone every year. I don't think I really need to, either. A new phone works fine for me for a while, and I normally don't see a pressing need to replace it until it starts to become s or perhaps isn't supported by an app anymore, I need more space, etc..
Nightfox
I thought it was weird that people were hoarding toilelt paper, of all things. Did everyone start getting diarrhea en masse last year when
the pandemic started? Luckily I had bought plenty of toilet paper and
had enough to last, but I wasn't going to the bathroom any more often
than usual. I thought it was weird not to see any toilet paper in
stock for some short times in local stores.
I was meaning capitalism in its purist free market form. Obviously it's subject to entropy, like everything else. Late stage capitalism is the result of large corporate interests cornering the market by lobbying politicians, infiltrating government offices and creating laws to impose their dominion. This can only occur when a country allows itself to have a LARGE and POWERFUL government. Small businesses, when they aren't hamstrung by government regulations, are nimble enough to chip away and topple larger corporations as they can adapt to consumer trends far more quickly and efficently than business monoliths.
But Capitalism is not "free markets", it is the private ownership of the means of production. It is characterised by employment and capital typically being the residual claimant of the end result of a productive process. "Free Markets" are a feature of Capitalism the same way that Democracy it, it is found together, but it is not necessary for a Capitalist economy to have a free market.
Low salaries are a huge reason as to why industry moved overseas... that and far less bureaucracy. It's an a-symmetrical playing field between China and the USA, they don't have the same worker's rights, health & safety, pension & healthcare packages, etc... and the sheer level of bureaucracy makes it expensive and time consuming to expand businesses in the West compared to the East. Even simple things such as planning and building permissions can become a proteracted ordeal, in China you just build shit and make money. They don't carry out enviromental impact assessments or anything like that.
---
They moves overseas because the laws allowed that to happen. We create a system which gives them the freedom to do so.
If these firms were democratically run, they would NOT be moving overseas. It is not inevitable that jobs go overseas.
Our kids are going to have a tough time regardless of whether the nation 'defaults' or attempts to repay the national debt.
What really is debt when it comes to national players? The majority of the worlds currencies aren't backed by no more than a wing and a prayer. If the US wants to pay back debt, they'll have to do something whether it raises taxes, drive up the GDP, divert spending from the military, and find ways to spur job growth.
But, in all reality, what really is the value of a dollar?
If people are being made to work, and they cannot sustain themselves,
then something is wrong. There is no way of arguing out of that fact. Something somewhere is wrong, and I don't believe it is employees.
Sure, some are lazy, and the should be fired if they are a liability,
but they doesn't explain everything.
Housing is expensive EVERYWHERE, and my skillset requires me near the city. For me to be a productive member of the economy, and to contribute the maximum value I can, I can't just "move".
Yeah, they are moving because your cities are turning to crap. I sure
as hell don't want Australia to follow your lead.
Besides, the commute from Florida to Melbourne, Australia is a bit much for me.
Utter rubbish. I PAY for town planners. I PAY to subsidise landlords.
I WORK to create product that lines pharmacy shelves. I resolve issues and create efficiencies for business. I PAY the politicians which set housing policy. I PAY for the roads, pay government. I, and all others who produce help support the entire system. That structure of laws that gives people property rights, I pay for.
The idea that people who actually produce the wealth, and support the ruling class, should expect nothing is just, baffling.
Surely your are being sarcastic?
The problem here is the Capitalist system of employment. See my
response to Arelor for details, I won't repeat here. Labour HAS NO
VALUE, only end results do.
The entire discussion of the value of labour is moot. The issue is
really whether the labour required to bring a product/service is worthwhile or not. When you divorce labour from the product (ie, pay labour), then these problems occur.
There is no "market value" for labour. It's a myth, an illusion. The value of labour is set by living costs because under that, it is not a worthwhile economic activity.
I'm not American. From what I see, the "American" way is dying anyway
and I hope that Australia doesn't follow your decline.
Business wants the cheap labour. Your "Free Enterprise" is really business titans pushing the gates open. The biggest cheerleaders for
open borders, are those that want to depress wages and keep the housing market saturated.
I don't really disagree here, but I think Conservatives dropped the ball decades ago. The problem isn't that people can makes themselves better off, the problem is that there are too many ways in which people can do that, from other peoples productive output. It's not just the person gaming welfare to sit at home, its people who game the system to find
ways to extract value from other peoples works, and our economic system allows that.
If you want to be wealthy, you must create wealth. All to often though, gaming the system, speculation, leverage, hoarding, state enforced property rights are used to claim wealth as well and our system IS gamed to support these over those that work. I know, I'm an investor and it
is clear that our system is skewed to support those that live off
capital, than those that produce.
In short, no one should be rich if they can't point to something they PRODUCED, or INVENTED or CREATED. But there are many who simply by exploiting money printed out of thin air, interest free loans, tax subsidies are able to claim increases in asset values, those assets increasing in value due to what other people did.
Mainstream Conservatives, or Cuckservatives as they should be called, are idiots. They moan about the decline of the traditional family, yet do nothing to ensure that Dad can afford to establish a family. They moan about the decline of community, and bonds with extended family, but then instead of pushing for economic conditions which allow community
cohesion, that just tell everyone to move away from family so that speculators can be free to bank $$$'s. I know one Conservative, Cory Bernardi in Australia, who would moan and whinge on his blog about
"family vales" and Islam, etc, but in his ENTIRE blog, he mentioned nothing about housing costs, which in Australia is one of the biggest issues facing families, and impeding people being able to start one.
What a fool. When landlords were facing maybe losing their tax payer funded gifts in Australia, which allowed then to overpay for housing and drive the market up, they moaned though. They want the results that
come from affordable housing, stable jobs with productivity improvements going to labour, without actually having affordable housing and productivity improvement going to labour.
Some, like Tucker Carlson, have a brain now, but its too few, too late.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-peo
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Arelor on
Tue Mar 09 2021 10:08 pm
The labour theory of value is a Marxist idea, yet in Capitalist socities,
ple contantly talk about the "value of labour".fixed
Do you not find that strange? I'm a salaried employee. What I earn is
, I'm not paid based on what I've produced, but
fixed rate to be here, and do what the business needs. I'm clearly rented.
It is funny you say that.
I've heard capitalists ideologists declare that, ultimately, labor is
the only thing that has value and everything else is anchored to it.
Gold is worth what it is worth because of regular supply/demand curves, but ultimately can only be purchased because somebody bothered to grab
a pick and dig it out from the underground. Even if you purchase the
gold from a middleman, what you are actually doing is to pay the
middleman for bothering to store the gold in a warehouse and deliver it
to you just when you order it.
Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
I don't believe "the market" should always set prices. It is not a
rule that the market is the optimal means to do so.
It always works much better than a bureaucrat setting the prices.
It was feasible to have labour do that job for decades, so what
changed?
The cost of carrying an employee - which is much more than the
employee's wage.
As for the product, why are you entitled to sell it? This is a wierd feature of Capitalist ideology, that an entrepreneur is ENTITLED to
sell product and buyers are ENTITLED to buy it.
Entitlement only exists in Socialism. I don't know why you even
brought it in to the discussion.
As a company, I am not entitled to sell a product. I offer a product. Customers are free to choose to buy or not. That's capitalism.
Under Socialism, the company is told by the state to produce while the buyers are told to buy it (or usually, it's the ONLY product).
Lets say product X, because of labour involved, cannot be sold under
$Y. Then if there is no market for X at $Y, then X is simply not a feasible product. Period.
Correct. Then no company sells it.
We in the West EXPECT to be able to buy
complex electronics at bargain prices, low enough to be able to change them a year, but we have to use almost slave labour in order to do so.
Why are we entitled to this?
You are completely off the rails here. We aren't entitled. We are
just used to it.
See, we don't want to wear the TRUE cost, so in order to get the
lifestyle that we believe we are entitled to, because it is marketed to us, we shift these costs elsewhere. I can by a polo top at a
department store in Melbourne for $5. Why should it be that cheap?
It's made that cheap, because the actual cost has been hidden,
obfuscted.
Ahh.... Now I smell the Social Justice stench.
I am not familiar with that fellow. Is he anything like Ayn
Rand?
Konkin makes Rand look tame.
His idea is that laws are not ethically superior because
they were enacted by some politician who got there because
he managed to fool the most voters. Therefore, breaking such
laws is not necessarily immoral and it may even be desirable
it such regulations are blatantly stupid.
Konkin was also the Author of The Legend of Anarcho-Klaus, a
tale about Santa's rebel son. In that tale, Santa is in the
government's payroll for brainwashing kids by giving away
politically acceptable gifts, and promoting pro-government
sheep mentallity. Anarcho-Klaus opposed Santa by giving
their kids hardcore stuff.
Well the US can't even service its debt interest obligations without printing the difference every single year. It's sad tha
we'll never see interest rates go up... even the slightest increase would make the payments unmanageable; never mind any not
of paying back the principle. The problem with the dollar is that all of this money printing has weakened it causing the mar
to lose confidence in it. And now that the USA is hooked on stimulus, it'll NEVER end. It's akin to a junkie on heroin... th
junkie cannot remain high if you cut off the drugs. Stop the stimulus payments, and you'll see another liquidity crisis. The
problem though is that the solution (stimulus) will eventually destroy your economy anyway via hyperinflation.
Anarcho Claus reminds me of Terry Pratchett's Hogfather -
another satirical spoof on a Santa-based Christmas, but staged
in the Discworld universe where the reindeer are hogs, Father
Christmas goes missing, but Death is force to step in to replace
him inorder to deliver the presents whilst spreading the
seasonal "cheer" to children. Awkard! LOL
Hogfather was made into to two tv episodes which were actually
quite well imagined.
My first intro to Discworld was with the story Good Omens. The
book is hiliarious. I don't like the tv adaptation though.
My next venture into the Discworld universe was with the tv
adaptation of the 1st Discworld novel, The Colour of Magic. The
depiction of the "luggage that follows you" and has the ability
to keep its contents safe under all circumstances, is well
executed. The deadpan humour of the actors is well done.
Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-
I thought it was weird that people were hoarding toilelt paper, of all things. Did everyone start getting diarrhea en masse last year when
the pandemic started? Luckily I had bought plenty of toilet paper and
had enough to last, but I wasn't going to the bathroom any more often
than usual. I thought it was weird not to see any toilet paper in
stock for some short times in local stores.
Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-
Also I'd think they'd prioritize in-store kiosk orders over online
orders (since an in-store customer is already there), but perhaps not.
Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-
Ah.. but the same politicians convert "regulations" into "laws".
Then you're screwed if you break those "laws".
Tracker1 wrote to hollowone <=-
A lot of the divisiveness comes down to an increased level of tribalism
as PC Culture, tribalism and counter-culture escalate in light of media which gets more eyes, and as a result more money from divisive topics.
Good Omens is not part of the Discworld.
Also, check Only you Can Save Humanity and The Exodus of the
Gnomes, for Terry's non Discworl stuff that is top tier.
I don't see Exodus..Gnomes listed though. Is that the same as
the Nome trilogy: Truckers, Diggers, Wings ?
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
Incidental anecdote, I know of an engineer who optimized factories
for a living via automation. He once was called to China for automating
a firm - I think it was an excavations firm. In the end they reached
the conclussion that it was not worth the effort to automate anything there. It was better to buy three thousand shovels for three thousand employees than purchase fifty bulldozers for fifty employees because workers there are dirty cheap and, most important, they don't cause trouble.
MRO wrote to Arelor <=-
in mcdonald's case (with my personal experience) the kiosks arent
making much of a difference and it's quicker to order right at the
line.
Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-
I've ordered from the McDonalds kiosks. I didn't think it was much faster, but I think it's more convenient. Whenever I've used their
kiosks (only a few times), it always seemed like I was waiting longer
than usual for my order to be ready.
fusion wrote to Nightfox <=-
i enjoy talking to people and used to occasionally go inside fast food places to sit down. but that hasn't been a thing since long before the lockdowns.. for example BK seems to be the biggest (probably seat 100
in there) and i've never seen more than 5 or so since i was a kid.
Dream Master wrote to Denn <=-
OMG, I remember that. I think what he said was the internet was a
series of tubes connecting everyone together and people equated Gore to the creation of the Internet.
I remember when my mother asked me if I
was on the internet in the early 2000s. My response to her, "Since the mid to late 80s." She was shocked that it was around for so long.
Nightfox wrote to Dr. What <=-
I thought it was weird that people were hoarding toilelt paper, of all things. Did everyone start getting diarrhea en masse last year when
the pandemic started? Luckily I had bought plenty of toilet paper and
had enough to last, but I wasn't going to the bathroom any more often
than usual. I thought it was weird not to see any toilet paper in
stock for some short times in local stores.
The game changer in my opinion is ordering on a fast food app, parking in one of the pick up spaces and skipping the drive-through, with the bad PA system, error-prone ordering, and waiting in a queue. Pull in, order online, and your food is brought out.
I'm playing on a site called tilde.club; it's a communal UNIX shell host reminiscent of the old community systems of the 80s and 90s. I noticed that they still have UUCP feeds available, I might have to go down that rabbit- hole for old time's sake...
Re: Re: GAB
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Tue Mar 09 2021 07:17 am
The game changer in my opinion is ordering on a fast food app, parking in one of the pick up spaces and skipping the drive-through, with the bad PA system, error-prone ordering, and waiting in a queue. Pull in, order online, and your food is brought out.
Some fast food places in my area have parking spaces for food pick-up, but in many cases, you still have to wait through the drive-thru line to pick up food ordered online.
in my city they lowered the amount of workers and changed the menu a LITTLE. the drive thru's are very fast.
Interesting thing: I was reading a theory two weeks ago, according to which the desire governments have to finish cash is due
to their desire to manipulate interest rates to the negative.
This is: if interest rates were very bad, you would pull your money out of the bank and place in your matress, so they can't
mess with interest rates as they are now. However, if they force you to have all your money in the bank, they can then charge
you with negative interest rates and the only way you will have to escape is by spending the money.
When I was a kid, a local Burger King was the place everyone hung out after the Friday night football game and before going out to one of the hangouts. The place was packed. I haven't been back on a game night, wonder if it's still a thing.
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to MRO on Tue Mar 09 2021 07:24 am
Minimum wage is lower in the states, and many rely on tips if they work in hospitality. Here the minimum is higher, which is perhaps why more jobs can be set at the minimum wage. A factor floor worker doesn't rely on tips, becaues they could never get them.
i havent worked a minimum wage job my entire adult life and neither has every single person i've known in my entire life. ---
MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to MRO on Tue Mar 09 2021 08:07 am
the thing is, the chinese do things cheaper and better.
they're just better at everything and that's why they're on top.
The Chinese do better? You serious?
absolutely they do better.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Tue Mar 09 2021 07:10 am
I was meaning capitalism in its purist free market form. Obviously it's subject to entropy, like everything else. Late stage capitalism is the result of large corporate interests cornering the market by lobbying politicians, infiltrating government offices and creating laws to impose their dominion. This can only occur when a country allows itself to have a LARGE and POWERFUL government. Small businesses, when they aren't hamstrung by government regulations, are nimble enough to chip away and topple larger corporations as they can adapt to consumer trends far more quickly and efficently than business monoliths.
But Capitalism is not "free markets", it is the private ownership of the means of production. It is characterised by employment and capital typically being the residual claimant of the end result of a productive process. "Free Markets" are a feature of Capitalism the same way that Democracy it, it is found together, but it is not necessary for a Capitalist economy to have a free market.
Fine, free market then. Everything else I said still stands.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Tue Mar 09 2021 08:06 am
Low salaries are a huge reason as to why industry moved overseas... that and far less bureaucracy. It's an a-symmetrical playing field between China and the USA, they don't have the same worker's rights, health & safety, pension & healthcare packages, etc... and the sheer level of bureaucracy makes it expensive and time consuming to expand businesses in the West compared to the East. Even simple things such as planning and building permissions can become a proteracted ordeal, in China you just build shit and make money. They don't carry out enviromental impact assessments or anything like that.
---
They moves overseas because the laws allowed that to happen. We create a system which gives them the freedom to do so.
If these firms were democratically run, they would NOT be moving overseas. It is not inevitable that jobs go overseas.
When the government creates and anti-competitive enviroment, businesses collapse because you cannot sell product Y if the acceptable price is below the costs of labour and production. Globalisation has ultimately ruined the West as it has given us access to cheap consumer goods.
IB Joe wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6049952D.117686.dove-gen@vert.synchro.net>
On 09 Mar 2021, Boraxman said the following...
If people are being made to work, and they cannot sustain themselves,
then something is wrong. There is no way of arguing out of that fact. Something somewhere is wrong, and I don't believe it is employees.
Sure, some are lazy, and the should be fired if they are a liability,
but they doesn't explain everything.
If you don't want to work for minimum wage don't do it. Re-train..
that's the beauty of it. In the US the left seems to try and get poor working class to feel like their victims... They should be showing them the way out of their situation... training in a trade ... whatever ... Instead they try to offer lies about minimum wage... Keep them down and forever reliant of Big Government.
Housing is expensive EVERYWHERE, and my skillset requires me near the city. For me to be a productive member of the economy, and to contribute the maximum value I can, I can't just "move".
It's not, and that's a lie. In the area of Florida where I have lived
you can still buy a house for under 100K., you could even go cheaper if you bought a mobile home. Here's a rule I've always went by...
Simple... you are where you are right now because of the story you told yourself... That's it... If you choose to stay where you are doing the exact same thing... expect no difference ever... Nothings going to
change if you don't change it... and nobody owes you a thing...
Yeah, they are moving because your cities are turning to crap. I sure
as hell don't want Australia to follow your lead.
Besides, the commute from Florida to Melbourne, Australia is a bit much for me.
It's 2020... find a way to be valuable outside of Melbourne... Be
happy enjoy the fact that you have the freedoms to try to succeed...
Think about the migrants working their way through Mexico right now... They are not pissing and moaning about real estate costs in Melbourne
... they are pumped about the opportunities that lay ahead.
When I first moved to the US I swore I could smell the opportunities
that awaited me.
Utter rubbish. I PAY for town planners. I PAY to subsidise landlords.
I WORK to create product that lines pharmacy shelves. I resolve issues and create efficiencies for business. I PAY the politicians which set housing policy. I PAY for the roads, pay government. I, and all others who produce help support the entire system. That structure of laws that gives people property rights, I pay for.
Great... Strap on a pair of shoes and go for a walk on those streets... Enjoy them... Next time you see a cop/fireman/whatever ... go up and
tell them that they owe you a great debt of gratitude because you pay their salary ...
Because your neighbor has more than you he does not mean he owes you a thing... buy your own shoes and enjoy a nice walk on the streets you
paid for.
The idea that people who actually produce the wealth, and support the ruling class, should expect nothing is just, baffling.
Surely your are being sarcastic?
I've always viewed the government as a mob boss... I give them a
portion of my paycheck and they don't break my fingers... in fact they
let me go about my business and leave me a lone. I don't look at my
tax payment to see if I'm going to get any benefit from it, in the future... or was the 30% they took just the cost in doing business...
and that's how I see it.
I can only talk about Canada or the US, both countries I hold
citizenship in and both countries I have lived in. Either case I'm screwed... The people running either country either have no clue what
they are doing, or... they are trying to run the countries into bankruptcy... You can't print and spend money the way they are.. in
either country... Something catastrophic is in the working. Analog
modems and community BBSes are about to become real hot again.
The problem here is the Capitalist system of employment. See my
response to Arelor for details, I won't repeat here. Labour HAS NO
VALUE, only end results do.
The entire discussion of the value of labour is moot. The issue is
really whether the labour required to bring a product/service is worthwhile or not. When you divorce labour from the product (ie, pay labour), then these problems occur.
There is no "market value" for labour. It's a myth, an illusion. The value of labour is set by living costs because under that, it is not a worthwhile economic activity.
That's not true... have a skill and demand a better wage... My Boy is a welder.. makes an extremely good wage... His cousin went to University
for 4 years to be an accountant... Moe almost makes twice what his
cousin makes. The boy doesn't entangle himself with females and lives like a king...
I'm not American. From what I see, the "American" way is dying anyway
and I hope that Australia doesn't follow your decline.
You have to be vigilant... Commies are everywhere... Cancel Culture is being exported out of the US right now.... Great Britain recently... Divide and concur is their method. Marx use to cancel the people who opposed him by killing them... Now they just try to cancel you... can't work, can't speak... Same thing, they just found a way not to use a
gun.
Business wants the cheap labour. Your "Free Enterprise" is really business titans pushing the gates open. The biggest cheerleaders for
open borders, are those that want to depress wages and keep the housing market saturated.
You are now speaking on a topic you have no idea on. Businesses are
not demanding the borders to be ope... recall businesses are simply
travel to where there is cheap labor.... easier to do that.... never
mind labor costs it's the other costs associated with running a business.... Taxes and regulations. The last thing I mentioned is probably the biggest cost in running a business... regulations.
The economy was the best in US history under Trumps care. He reduced taxes, cut regulations and factories started to return. He made the climate for companies to do business in the US better than doing it elsewhere... That was it. The trump recovery was a bottom up
recovery... the people on the bottom rungs felt it more than the people above. In fact working class finally started to see it in their paychecks... in which they had not for the last 2 presidents.
The Democrats have an open boarder policy. This policy is not to drive wages down, as it will do anyway, but rather it's to destroy the US as
a country and reset it to a country where individual rights are not
king. They seem to be tired of trying to convince the population that being sheep is better... They want a population that is dependent on
the government. The liberals call this "The Great Reset".
This is a revolution... unlike other revolutions where the populous
rose up to overthrow the powerful.... It's the powerful squashing the populous...
The US just passed, almost anyway, ~$2 Trillion "Covid" relief ... whatever they called it... less than 9% is actually for Covid... where
as the rest.. goes out to the politically connected. They have been printing money in the US and only the top 0.0001% has been getting any benefit from it. They'll shut down mom and pop hardware stores but let home depot stay open...
I don't really disagree here, but I think Conservatives dropped the ball decades ago. The problem isn't that people can makes themselves better off, the problem is that there are too many ways in which people can do that, from other peoples productive output. It's not just the person gaming welfare to sit at home, its people who game the system to find
ways to extract value from other peoples works, and our economic system allows that.
If you want to be wealthy, you must create wealth. All to often though, gaming the system, speculation, leverage, hoarding, state enforced property rights are used to claim wealth as well and our system IS gamed to support these over those that work. I know, I'm an investor and it
is clear that our system is skewed to support those that live off
capital, than those that produce.
Who cares... If you know the water you're swimming in... just do it... People leverage all the time... FOR EXAMPLE... People sometimes do not have all the money they need to buy a house... so... the leverage the purchase and use other people's money and they get a mortgage...
Or... U can be smart and gather with others to perform a short-squeeze
on some Hedge Funds and stick it to the man. Enjoy life... The Great Awakening is upon us.
In short, no one should be rich if they can't point to something they PRODUCED, or INVENTED or CREATED. But there are many who simply by exploiting money printed out of thin air, interest free loans, tax subsidies are able to claim increases in asset values, those assets increasing in value due to what other people did.
Mainstream Conservatives, or Cuckservatives as they should be called, are idiots. They moan about the decline of the traditional family, yet do nothing to ensure that Dad can afford to establish a family. They moan about the decline of community, and bonds with extended family, but then instead of pushing for economic conditions which allow community
cohesion, that just tell everyone to move away from family so that speculators can be free to bank $$$'s. I know one Conservative, Cory Bernardi in Australia, who would moan and whinge on his blog about
"family vales" and Islam, etc, but in his ENTIRE blog, he mentioned nothing about housing costs, which in Australia is one of the biggest issues facing families, and impeding people being able to start one.
What a fool. When landlords were facing maybe losing their tax payer funded gifts in Australia, which allowed then to overpay for housing and drive the market up, they moaned though. They want the results that
come from affordable housing, stable jobs with productivity improvements going to labour, without actually having affordable housing and productivity improvement going to labour.
In the US and Canada Conservatives always showed up to a gun fight with
a knife... Liberals here don't play nice. Conservatives, in Canada, Republicans in the US, always played by the rules... Call them a
racist and they ran away. For the first time in Republicans finally showed up to the gun fight with a gun.... It was a 45... it's name was Trump.
Every time the Democrats tried their little bag of tricks Trump fought back... They'd say you're racist... He'd say you are ... and here's the video... Drove them nuts...
I'm not sure if Trump will run in 2024... But the Democrats and Joe
Biden are going to be looking over their backs for the next 4 years.
Some, like Tucker Carlson, have a brain now, but its too few, too late.
I love Tucker.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Andeddu on Wed Mar 10 2021 04:59 pm
in my city they lowered the amount of workers and changed the menu a LITTLE. the drive thru's are very fast.
Yes, I think the drive-thru's are down to a tee now that it's the only viable method to order a meal. I prefer using the drive-thru anyway... never really enjoyed sitting in at McDs.
they're just better at everything and that's why they're on top.
The Chinese do better? You serious?
absolutely they do better.
Maybe in your industry that might be true, mine, not so much.
OK, then if the argument is that minimum wage is only for burger flipping you must ALSO accept that any other unskilled jobs
production like work, preparation of fresh food, other jobs which we need in adequate supply, should be paid at ABOVE minimu
wage.
The fact is, a lot of jobs do need to be done, but don't need education. They can't all be done by 16 year olds working ove
the summer to buy a Playstation.
Otherwise, you will have a 'skills shortage', and then, what? Import people?
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
I have a big issue with all the talking about needing higher education
to get better career results, because it perpetuates this dangerous
myth that makes the education mob stronger and funnels the common man's money into their pockets.
I have a nice collection of examples of degreeless jobs that do better than most degreed jobs around. We have produced lots of degreed people
and now we don't have job positions to place them.
OK, so when I'm critical of Capitalism, I'm not critiquing a market economy, or vice versa. People use the two terms interchangeably, which irks me a bit. It's important to realise that Markets can exist without Capitalism, because otherwise, defence of markets then gets misconstrued as necessitating defence of the class that holds Capital.
This misunderstanding stifles debate because people erroneously point to the success that market economies have over beaurocratically ones, as some form of evidence against, say, changing property rights or employment law. The Marxist boogey man serves Capitalism really well.
They moves overseas because the laws allowed that to happen. We create a system which gives them the freedom to do so.
If these firms were democratically run, they would NOT be moving overseas. It is not inevitable that jobs go overseas.
When the government creates and anti-competitive enviroment, businesses collapse because you cannot sell product Y if the acceptable price is below the costs of labour and production. Globalisation has ultimately ruined the West as it has given us access to cheap consumer goods.
Another important aspect is regulation, and costs of compliance to regulations.
Some are necessary (I work in an industry which does need SOME regulation), but regulators always seek to expand their importance, and therefore, the cost.
The Chinese do better? You serious?
absolutely they do better.
Maybe in your industry that might be true, mine, not so much.
go look up what the chinese do. look up what they make. they have taken control of most of the industries.
Re: Re: GAB
By: MRO to Boraxman on Thu Mar 11 2021 11:14 pm
The Chinese do better? You serious?
absolutely they do better.
Maybe in your industry that might be true, mine, not so much.
go look up what the chinese do. look up what they make. they have taken control of most of the industries.
The Chinese have seized the low-end and high-end markets in most industries, along with technology. If you want an expensive premium smart phone, it'll be made in China. If you want a cheapo throwaway burner phone, it'll also be made in China.
IB Joe wrote to Boraxman <=-
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On 09 Mar 2021, Boraxman said the following...
The worker is NOT at fault. Any system where people work full time, sustain themselves, is broken. The idea that it is the workers that broken, they working full time should not guarantee some standard of they can be a member of society, is reprehensible.
Yes it is.... If they want a higher wage they should gain the skill
set that pays them the wage they want. Most minimum wage jobs were
not created to sustain life... Teens and others need these jobs to
build a foundation... Now they'll be gone. Business owners will
not hire a teen if they have to pay the kid a lot of money. Fast
food places will automate processes... others will employ family and illegals over none...
Doing a quick search with DuckDuckGo I found with in seconds several articles showing the labor costs for a small business can be up to
70% of its operating costs. It is small business that employs a lot
of people in the world... US ... Large businesses who can afford
higher wages and they also have the ability to maneuver bureaucratic red-tape... Love watching small businesses suffer and fail.... This
is why large businesses lobby in Washington to implement a lot of
these policies, high wages and regulations, so that competition
cannot get a start.... and as a result they keep their power...
A house in my city, a typical house like the one my warehouse worker dad purchased, now might cost a million dollars.
Great news... U can move... The real estate market is a local
market, houses being sold in California have no influence house
prices in Texas, or the price of homes in Austin have no, little to
none, in Brownsville.
People are moving every day from cities and states because of
costs... My home state... Florida ... You could live in a large city center or... live where I have ... Cystal River in Citrus county...
you can still buy a place for under a 100,000 easy... If you don't
like the cost of living where you live... MOVE... If your a Business
owner and your business is under attack with wage costs, taxation
and regulations... Move... move to a different state or different
country.
Good luck arguing that wages shouldn't go up. That alone just
highlights the absurdity of the "wages are too high" argument. They aren't. They aren't high enough.
No is arguing that... I just think it should be free market that
sets wages... not an artificial amount set by the government... If
you want to bring yourself out of poverty add to your skills...
With no effort at all its easy to find honest articles showing, and
there is, correlations in unemployment rising with the increase
labor costs... Moreover, there also is a is a correlation with
taxation and unemployment as well....
We saw the best economy in US history because Trump lowered taxes
for everyone... giving more money to the people... and the single
most important things he did was cut regulations... Now small
businesses can start and compete in a free market...
No, workers are not at fault. Our system enables parasitic property specuvestors to hoard property, we increase immigratoin to drive down wages and drive up property prices so they can make PASSIVE income doing nothing but attending auctions, and we have the audicity to then
question worker Joe, who just wants to be able to support his wife and kids. No, the spivs that drove up the price of housing from 3x years wages to 11x yearly wages, no, they are golden. All the other profit seekers, ticket clippers, middle men, speculators, the hedge funds, they are just fine, aren't they? Better to have children grow up with lack
of opportunity and precarious housing arrangments, than have some speculator maybe "only" make 2 million flipping properties instead of 10 million.
Got to love the American way.... Free enterprise baby!!!! Don't
like things, change it... you can be the next Opra, not with your attitude, be a victor not a victim ....
As the current administration floods the labor force with cheep 3rd
world labor I do not see a bright future for the average American as
these people are probably willing to do that work for less money...
And even worse ... current administration is willing to print
trillion and trillions of US dollars and only give it to the top
1%... People need to look at the bill that was just passed... less
than 10% going to the American people and over 90% going
elsewhere... The party that use to have J.F.K. in it is a horse of a different color now... Divide and concur...
Nobody argued that... most conservatives... in the US anyway... just
want a constitutional government... Limited federal reach... 10'th amendment should be respected and someone needs to bitch slap people
in Washington...
Liberal seem to want to change the outcomes... someone goes to
school years and years and years to become a doctor, lawyer and engineer... They do this to elevate themselves and their
families.... Liberals want to take the spoils of their efforts and redistribute it to people who have no skin in the game....
Conservatives work under the exact opposite thinking... lets
implement the right policies so that it's a level playing field and
that anyone who wants to grab at the gold ring can.... and if you
succeed I am proud of you... not envious of you... proud.
The swamp is deep in Washington... people there seem to want to
enrich themselves and their families before they even care about
you... Hunter Binden is a prime example...
I believe we're living in a post constitutional world right now. I
also believe we are not that far from a catastrophic market crash if Washington doesn't fix what they are doing.... I mean this... Never
mind $15 and hour... U'll have to resort to giving BJs just to get something warm in your stomach ...
Andeddu wrote to Dream Master <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Dream Master to Andeddu on Tue Mar 09 2021 06:10 pm
But, in all reality, what really is the value of a dollar?
The dollar has no intrinsic value, not since Nixon took you off the
gold standard in 1971.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dream Master <=-
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Dream Master wrote to Denn <=-
I remember when my mother asked me if I
was on the internet in the early 2000s. My response to her, "Since the mid to late 80s." She was shocked that it was around for so long.
I'm playing on a site called tilde.club; it's a communal UNIX shell
host reminiscent of the old community systems of the 80s and 90s. I noticed that they still have UUCP feeds available, I might have to
go down that rabbit- hole for old time's sake...
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to IB Joe on
Fri Mar 12 2021 01:45 am
OK, then if the argument is that minimum wage is only for burger flippingyou
must ALSO accept that any other unskilled jobsThe
production like work, preparation of fresh food, other jobs which we need in
adequate supply, should be paid at ABOVE minimu
wage.
The fact is, a lot of jobs do need to be done, but don't need education.
y can't all be done by 16 year olds working ovepeople
the summer to buy a Playstation.
Otherwise, you will have a 'skills shortage', and then, what? Import
?
I have a big issue with all the talking about needing higher education
to get better career results, because it perpetuates this dangerous
myth that makes the education mob stronger and funnels the common man's money into their pockets.
I know of plenty people who got nice careers without getting the equivalent to mid-grade because they were pumping their efforts into something other than studies. Meanwhile I am sitting on a store that
pays itslef but barely turns a profit, do part-time sysadmining to
cover expenses, and need a third job with a publisher to make ends
meet. So much for an Engineering degree and certificates for 3000 hours courses in various IT disciplines.
The fact some job needs no education does not mean it is
non-profitable. We had a dude in the clinic tasked with moving life-critical equipment from a place to another who made more than some computer sicentists in big IT firms. Also, the store where I get my
horse food from used to have a shortage of employees, despite the fact clerks were paid well above minimum wage for a job that mostly
consisted in smiling at customers and taking their money - they didn'¡
t even had to take care of the hard parts like dealing with inventory, because they have a grumpy old dude for that.
I have a nice collection of examples of degreeless jobs that do better than most degreed jobs around. We have produced lots of degreed people
and now we don't have job positions to place them. And then they don't like us in other countries so we can't even export them. The degree
then turns into a liability for this people, because when you show up
for a van driving job and they see that you have a Doctorate in Astrophysics, they are going to assume you don't have experience in
their field. It likely places you at a different social level than them
in their minds, which let me tell you, is a bad thing. So you don't
even get the van driving job.
But hey, let's encourage everybody to get a degree :-(
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Thu Mar 11 2021 11:27 pm
OK, so when I'm critical of Capitalism, I'm not critiquing a market economy, or vice versa. People use the two terms interchangeably, which irks me a bit. It's important to realise that Markets can exist without Capitalism, because otherwise, defence of markets then gets misconstrued as necessitating defence of the class that holds Capital.
This misunderstanding stifles debate because people erroneously point to the success that market economies have over beaurocratically ones, as some form of evidence against, say, changing property rights or employment law. The Marxist boogey man serves Capitalism really well.
Capitalism has served us well for a very long time. Capitalism is what allowed the USA to go from a backwater, mud-slinging shit-house to the World's premier superpower, and it would have continued as the
preferred form of economic system had it not been corrpted and
transformed by central banks and corporate monoliths. The expansion of government has caused this. As someone mentioned earlier, Facebook are demanding MORE regulation in the social media space, not less. You may think this to be counter-productive, however their plan is to raise the barrier to entry in order to stifle competition.
Richard Wolff, the Harvard Marxian economist, and Peter Schiff, a
purist capitalist hedge fund manager, both agreed that government WAS
the vehicle used by the corporate and banking elites to re-shape the system in order to promulgate wider wealth disparities. Schiff argued
that America's inability to safeguard against big government was to
blame, and Wolff argued that the end-game of capitalism IS
consolidation and that monopolies are unavoidable as plutocrats are programmed to conspire against ordinary people by colluding with each other to increase their market-share, raise prices and lower costs. I
see merit in both arguments.
So what is your preferred economic system then if capitalism "doesn't work", Boraxman? Socialism? Marxism? Technocracy?
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Thu Mar 11 2021 11:29 pm
They moves overseas because the laws allowed that to happen. We create a system which gives them the freedom to do so.
If these firms were democratically run, they would NOT be moving overseas. It is not inevitable that jobs go overseas.
When the government creates and anti-competitive enviroment, businesses collapse because you cannot sell product Y if the acceptable price is below the costs of labour and production. Globalisation has ultimately ruined the West as it has given us access to cheap consumer goods.
Another important aspect is regulation, and costs of compliance to regulations.
Some are necessary (I work in an industry which does need SOME regulation), but regulators always seek to expand their importance, and therefore, the cost.
I agree that some regulation is required, but once regulation becomes financially prohibitive, goverments have to reconsider their implementation as the cost is often the relocation of industry
elsewhere followed by an increase in unemployment numbers.
Almost all businesses have a large operating budget that is consumed by labor. But instead of looking at labor, improving the lives of their employees, they'd rather cut costs and terminate employees instead of increasing the costs of goods by 1 or 2% and pay their employees a true minimum wage that is livable.
However, when I was young, it was drummed into me, us, that we should get a good eduction, lest we end up as garbage men. Higher education was seen as
if you want to eat, buy something , build something, there's a big chance you are going through china.
But, in all reality, what really is the value of a dollar?
The dollar has no intrinsic value, not since Nixon took you off the gold standard in 1971.
Exactly. There is no value to money. In all honesty, between
countries, what really is money?
They are both right. Capitalism I believe will end up in a type consolidation.
The fact that it worked in the past is not relevant now. Society is always in flux, conditions change, and requirements change. Nothing is static and all systems succumb to entropy.
I don't advocate a "system". That is part of the problem, believing in an "ism". I'm anti-Capitalism, but I don't propose another ideology to replace it. Ideology is the problem. Capitalist ideology is our problem because its the dominant one. We need to stop thinking that we need ideological systems.
What I think we need is adaptation and reform. We need to reform our system of property rights and of employment. I do not subscribe to the theory that the problem is earning disparity, the problem is a disparity of rights. I believe we should move towards STRONGER individual property rights. Rental of human beings to end, and property rights being attributed towards the labour which brought it about.
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sat Mar 13 2021 09:07 pm
However, when I was young, it was drummed into me, us, that we should get a good eduction, lest we end up as garbage men. Higher education was seen as
Indicentally, garbage men make more money in certain Spanish cities than a trained worker with mid-level education, or sometimes high-level education. The job is not pretty but it is yet another example :-(
but in many cases, you still have to wait through the drive-thru line
to pick up food ordered online.
i did that at sonic and i waited 40 mins. got half my order. then the kid kept hiding inside and wouldnt come out. finally i got a refund. ---
Arelor wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Re: Re: GAB
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Dream
Master on Wed Mar 10 2021 07:17 am
I'm playing on a site called tilde.club; it's a communal UNIX shell host reminiscent of the old community systems of the 80s and 90s. I noticed that they still have UUCP feeds available, I might have to go down that rabbit- hole for old time's sake...
That sounds extremely interesting.
Which sort of systems and services are they running over there?
Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-
Yes, I think the drive-thru's are down to a tee now that it's the only viable method to order a meal. I prefer using the drive-thru anyway... never really enjoyed sitting in at McDs.
Boraxman wrote to MRO <=-
Neither have I, but I have known people who have taken minimum wage, at least at some point. But then again, I'm intelligent and educated,
with industry experience.
You see, even *I* am ambivalent about an economic reset. What am I
going to lose? Debt? How are my children going to be able to have a decent life? I see no solutions. This is the problem. "Moving" as you say, is not a long term solution. You eventually run out of places to move to. Moving away from urban centres (which Australia has few of),
is good way to to have your family slip down the socio-economic ladder.
I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone marketing gadgets for car meals
yet.
I had to work last night, got off work and went to a McDonalds. Ordered on their app, had my food brought out to one of the pick up spaces, parked in a quiet part of the lot, put my phone on my dash holder and watched a movie in peace while I ate.
I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone marketing gadgets for car meals yet.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Sat Mar 13 2021 09:13 pm
They are both right. Capitalism I believe will end up in a type consolidation.
The fact that it worked in the past is not relevant now. Society is always in flux, conditions change, and requirements change. Nothing is static and all systems succumb to entropy.
I don't advocate a "system". That is part of the problem, believing in an "ism". I'm anti-Capitalism, but I don't propose another ideology to replace it. Ideology is the problem. Capitalist ideology is our problem because its the dominant one. We need to stop thinking that we need ideological systems.
What I think we need is adaptation and reform. We need to reform our system of property rights and of employment. I do not subscribe to the theory that the problem is earning disparity, the problem is a disparity of rights. I believe we should move towards STRONGER individual property rights. Rental of human beings to end, and property rights being attributed towards the labour which brought it about.
I agree that all systems are doomed to succumb to entropy. That is why
the Catholic Church had such a stranglehold of the population during medieval times, they wanted to preeserve their power, way of life and shield their ideology from any form of external corruption.
I kind of see what you're saying. We do need stronger property rights,
we do need to abolish property taxes, etc...
I think the buggest hurdle in relation to capitalism right now is the realisation that automation will take over more and more jobs. By 2030 something like 30-40% of the jobs today will no longer be carried out
by human labour, they will be automated by machine. By 2050, around 80%
of jobs are speculated to be no longer available. This is an insurmountable problem as human capitol has been integral to the Industrial Revolution, large populations expanded quickly as workhouses filled up with workers. A future society consisting of idle non-workers will be asking a diffent question -
Are we going to have a permanent underclass who will have to consume resources to live but have no ability to produce anything in return?
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Boraxman wrote to MRO <=-
Neither have I, but I have known people who have taken minimum wage, at least at some point. But then again, I'm intelligent and educated,
with industry experience.
I suppose finding a niche is important. I work in IT Management, but
I'm very hands-on. While I was between jobs I received a call from a
firm looking for people who had networking and cabling experience. I
ended up working a 10-week gig with a team of 9 other people replacing
the wireless infrastructure at a nearby military base. Some
cable-pulling, but mostly understanding the concepts, being able to
punch down cables, work neatly and quickly, and show up on time.
The money was surprisingly good, about twice what they pay hourly
helpdesk people around these parts.
It was a lifesaver, financially, helped me emotionally to get out of
the house and away from spending all day sending out resumes, and I
spent so much time climbing up ladders (and hauling ladders around from building to building) that I lost 15 pounds.
The other guys had all run into each other over the years, wiring up banks, coffee shops, small retail, and one guy had wired a handful of Target stores. They were turning down gigs over the phone daily while
we were working.
Dream Master wrote to IB Joe <=-
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IB Joe wrote to Boraxman <=-
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On 09 Mar 2021, Boraxman said the following...
The worker is NOT at fault. Any system where people work full time, sustain themselves, is broken. The idea that it is the workers that broken, they working full time should not guarantee some standard of they can be a member of society, is reprehensible.
Yes it is.... If they want a higher wage they should gain the skill
set that pays them the wage they want. Most minimum wage jobs were
not created to sustain life... Teens and others need these jobs to
build a foundation... Now they'll be gone. Business owners will
not hire a teen if they have to pay the kid a lot of money. Fast
food places will automate processes... others will employ family and illegals over none...
I disagree. When the Federal Minimum Wage was created, it was designed that a family could afford to house, pay utilities, and keep food on
the table while still saving money. The minimum wage has not increased but the market is still preying on unskilled labor to fill those positions.
Doing a quick search with DuckDuckGo I found with in seconds several articles showing the labor costs for a small business can be up to
70% of its operating costs. It is small business that employs a lot
of people in the world... US ... Large businesses who can afford
higher wages and they also have the ability to maneuver bureaucratic red-tape... Love watching small businesses suffer and fail.... This
is why large businesses lobby in Washington to implement a lot of
these policies, high wages and regulations, so that competition
cannot get a start.... and as a result they keep their power...
Almost all businesses have a large operating budget that is consumed by labor. But instead of looking at labor, improving the lives of their employees, they'd rather cut costs and terminate employees instead of increasing the costs of goods by 1 or 2% and pay their employees a true minimum wage that is livable.
A house in my city, a typical house like the one my warehouse worker dad purchased, now might cost a million dollars.
I'm looking at houses that cost up to a million dollars. I don't want
to pay it, but I may have to. Look at my parents and grandparents
houses. My parents bought their last house in Orange County,
California for $190K and sold it for $475. The buyers turned around
two years later and sold it for $800K+. My grandparent's house in San Bernardino County, California was purchased for $30K and it is now
worth upwards of $800K.
Again, minimum wages cannot sustain the lives of the average person
these days. Rent is no longer affordable and families cannot live
happily as they use to.
Great news... U can move... The real estate market is a local
market, houses being sold in California have no influence house
prices in Texas, or the price of homes in Austin have no, little to
none, in Brownsville.
I agree and disagree with the statement. Yes, the real estate market
is a local market but the current drive for people to move out of California, New York, and other high priced markets trickles down to
the destination cities making house prices increase exponentially. My house, when I bought it in 2003, was $230K. I can now easily get $450
to $500K for it. Why? The market indicated this growth as more people are moving to Colorado from states like California, New York, and
others. Supply and domain.
People are moving every day from cities and states because of
costs... My home state... Florida ... You could live in a large city center or... live where I have ... Cystal River in Citrus county...
you can still buy a place for under a 100,000 easy... If you don't
like the cost of living where you live... MOVE... If your a Business
owner and your business is under attack with wage costs, taxation
and regulations... Move... move to a different state or different
country.
I've considered moving to states like Florida and pay cash for a house. What do I get? A nice house, ridiculous amounts of humidity,
hurricanes, right-wing nut jobs, and flamingo yard sticks.
Good luck arguing that wages shouldn't go up. That alone just
highlights the absurdity of the "wages are too high" argument. They aren't. They aren't high enough.
Wages should be sufficient to ensure you can live, eat, house, and pay utilities. If you can't do any of that on one income, wages are too
low.
No is arguing that... I just think it should be free market that
sets wages... not an artificial amount set by the government... If
you want to bring yourself out of poverty add to your skills...
With no effort at all its easy to find honest articles showing, and
there is, correlations in unemployment rising with the increase
labor costs... Moreover, there also is a is a correlation with
taxation and unemployment as well....
Free market economy ... no. Please no. If we allow business to set a base wage, our economy will tank. A company may think they can pay
Blue Collar workers $10/hr and if those workers think that it is sufficient, they'll stay. In reality, a company a city away may pay
$25 or $30/hr for the same work and not get any of those underpaid employees simply because they aren't looking.
We saw the best economy in US history because Trump lowered taxes
for everyone... giving more money to the people... and the single
most important things he did was cut regulations... Now small
businesses can start and compete in a free market...
This statement alone is wrong. Trump did not lower taxes for the
Middle Class, he lowered it for the lower (read poverty class) and
upper class. As always, the Middle Class got screwed. My income keeps getting screwed by tax laws and even the COVID relief plan just
approved gets me screwed out of money. If the Democrats and
Republicans keep lowering stimulus thresholds, even my son won't get anything.
No, workers are not at fault. Our system enables parasitic property specuvestors to hoard property, we increase immigratoin to drive down wages and drive up property prices so they can make PASSIVE income doing nothing but attending auctions, and we have the audicity to then
question worker Joe, who just wants to be able to support his wife and kids. No, the spivs that drove up the price of housing from 3x years wages to 11x yearly wages, no, they are golden. All the other profit seekers, ticket clippers, middle men, speculators, the hedge funds, they are just fine, aren't they? Better to have children grow up with lack
of opportunity and precarious housing arrangments, than have some speculator maybe "only" make 2 million flipping properties instead of 10 million.
I've consideredd flipping properties but I have absolutely no desire to
do any of the work. There is always ways to make passive income but we will always fall victim to some big business who has sufficient funds
to buy up countless houses at rock bottom prices. I'd like to see the housing market, where HUD was an original guarantor of a loan, to only sell the homes to non-investor families.
Dream Master wrote to Andeddu <=-
@MSGID: <604C6C5C.2025.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
@REPLY: <60496A08.24849.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
Andeddu wrote to Dream Master <=-
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@MSGID: <60496A08.24849.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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@TZ: 1000
Re: Re: GAB
By: Dream Master to Andeddu on Tue Mar 09 2021 06:10 pm
But, in all reality, what really is the value of a dollar?
The dollar has no intrinsic value, not since Nixon took you off the
gold standard in 1971.
Exactly. There is no value to money. In all honesty, between
countries, what really is money?
However, when I was young, it was drummed into me, us, that we should get a >> good eduction, lest we end up as garbage men. Higher education was seen as
Indicentally, garbage men make more money in certain Spanish cities than a >trained worker with mid-level education, or sometimes high-level education. The
job is not pretty but it is yet another example :-(
Our economic system has to work for everyone, we can't say "This is the solution", and its only possible for x% to engage in it, and for the rest "t bad, so sad".
I think any entity which purchases additional property that it doesn't use, should be taxed, heavily. If you want to buy a second residential property, then you are using twice the portion of the available residential property supply than what you need, and in seizing more of this for yourself, you sho incur a larger social liability. Hoarding in our society is considered a virtue, odd. People that hoard homes should pay additional tax to counterac the increased burden on sociey from shortened supply.
Lefties have no economic sense at all. They think that if a company charges $2 for a cup of coffee, the company gets all that money. They don't understand that after paying for everything that it takes to make that cup of money, they company is lucky to get $0.02 out of that $2.
Many years ago, we were watching the Kroger strike going on. People were sympathetic to the workers until they found out that those part time workers were making more than many full time workers in other companies.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
There is a reason why Capitalism and Communism are considered scarcity economies. They exist because they deal with the management of
resources that are in limited supply.
Humanity as a whole lacks the capability of equiping every single individual of the planet with the minimum standards of living that
first worlders take for granted.
There are only resources for everybody if everybody agrees to live to a much lower standard than your average European or North American is
used to. Just not gonna happen.
We seem to go down rabbit holes I prefer not to go... I don't blame one thing or an other... Todays politicians are in it for themselves...
That's it. They all seem to have an agenda outside of wanting to make things better for the people in their country...
I hope and pray we can pull out of this before its too late..
Boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Yes, I have a niche skill. When I approach these issues, I don't look
at what I can do. I look at how workable it is for everyone.
I really think that this is the kind of thinking which is causing the decline of our civilsation. All too often people seem to approach the matter as "I'll get mine, and if everything else fails, as long as I'm good, its good".
Absolutely, which is why we need to change the system now. As it is now, the system is based on people "selling their labour" to owners of the means of production. Automation doesn't make labour worthless (I argue it already it), it makes humans redundant in production environments.
A system where humans are universally self-employed, i.e., all firms are workers coops doesn't fix this. But it changes the solution to one of "lets redistribute wealth" to "lets claim a property right over production where automation is concerned". Maybe by considering the nation is a co-worker, the nations input being based on how much automation there is.
Either way, fundamentally, the idea of having to "work for a living" will have to go, we WILL have to reevaluate our economic morality and transvaluate at least some of Capitalisms values. Capitalism served well in the past, but in its current form, is not suited for our future.
If that happens, it happens because our society is anti-human, and will be, I think, something that could further drive Western Civilisation into irrelevancy. If China can get this to work, and we just end up with an underclass because of our system, its all over. China is sort of Communist, so they could potentially adapt to this much faster. They already have strong government control and ownership, so its not such a leap for them. I can't see a way around this coming change without adopting something that looks like socialism or socialisation of the economy. We need solutions, and if we are constantly going to be dragging the economic concerns of the 1950s (Marxism!! Socialism!!) with us, we are toast.
The dollar has no intrinsic value, not since Nixon took you off the gold standard in 1971.
Exactly. There is no value to money. In all honesty, between countries, what really is money?
No value to money? I bet if you dropped a $100 note and it blew away, you would chase after it.
IB Joe wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <604E482C.117830.dove-gen@vert.synchro.net>
You see, even *I* am ambivalent about an economic reset. What am I
going to lose? Debt? How are my children going to be able to have a decent life? I see no solutions. This is the problem. "Moving" as you say, is not a long term solution. You eventually run out of places to move to. Moving away from urban centres (which Australia has few of),
is good way to to have your family slip down the socio-economic ladder.
You have everything to loose... In Venezuela they stop counting
money... they actually weigh it.... you need sooooooooooo much because it's worth nothing. This happened in Germany ... People used it for
fuel to burn in their fire places... You have everything to loose...
I'm sure you mortgage holder will just let you out of your contract... they'll take your place after you default.
We seem to go down rabbit holes I prefer not to go... I don't blame one thing or an other... Todays politicians are in it for themselves...
That's it. They all seem to have an agenda outside of wanting to make things better for the people in their country...
Where I come from... as a US citizen... I always like the idea that the constitution limited the federal government and protected the
individual. People, not me, put their faith in the government... Again not me!!!
I get nervous when I hear the government is here to help.... I say that and I'm from Florida... and I have been to the FEMA trucks pull up with fresh water and whatever else they have. BTW, we call the water Floodweiser .... BUT there was a time in the day that the state took
care of itself... Texas in 1900 had a hurricane with little to no
federal support...
So... I believe in the US constitution... I believe in it whole heartedly... I believe in the 2nd Amendment and I carry a firearm all
the time, where it's legal to, and I absolutely refuse to go to states that don't honor my right. I will actually drive around a state than enter it... there are about 10 or more states that don't honor my
permit to carry...
I don't need the governments help, unless I really need it, or do I
want the government to take people's wealth and redistribute it to others...
The current political model is that they are trying to create a dependency... a need for them... Like any addictive drug... best not
to even try it... Just say no....
You talk a lot of shit about your government... BUT... currently they
are the only ones to stand up against China and Big Tech... It's one of the only places you can go online and get the NEWS straight without
bias.
I hope and pray we can pull out of this before its too late..
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <604EAB32.21756.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <604E8E06.49599.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to poindexter FORTRAN
on Sun Mar 14 2021 09:51 pm
Our economic system has to work for everyone, we can't say "This is the solution", and its only possible for x% to engage in it, and for the rest "t bad, so sad".
Well, I have already argued that the problem is there are too many of
us in this ball of mud we call Earth.
There is a reason why Capitalism and Communism are considered scarcity economies. They exist because they deal with the management of
resources that are in limited supply.
Humanity as a whole lacks the capability of equiping every single individual of the planet with the minimum standards of living that
first worlders take for granted. If you check Greenpeace's stats you notice that even 2nd tier burn through essential natural resources
faster than they can replenish them.
There are only resources for everybody if everybody agrees to live to a much lower standard than your average European or North American is
used to. Just not gonna happen.
When there are no chair enough for everybody, somebody is gonna end up sittingg on the ground. Which sucks when you are an expendable person nobody cares for or who is very easily reemplazable (and yes I suspect that is me btw) but, as Chucky used to say, "Life is a bitch and then
you bleed out like a pig". The system you use for assigning chairs is irrelevant when there are no chairs enough.
Both vertical and horizontal unions have been tried and are being
tried. Spaniards ended up eating dust via such sort of model to the
point people had to visit the black market if they wanted to purchase lettuces. What economic systems do is change the way we deal with
misery, and who takes his cuts, nothing else.
Excuse me if I sound bleak but I am going through some bad shit in my personal life right now so I don't feel very positive.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <604EAE64.21757.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <604E8E08.49600.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Dream Master on
Sun Mar 14 2021 10:23 pm
I think any entity which purchases additional property that it doesn't use, should be taxed, heavily. If you want to buy a second residential property, then you are using twice the portion of the available residential property supply than what you need, and in seizing more of this for yourself, you sho incur a larger social liability. Hoarding in our society is considered a virtue, odd. People that hoard homes should pay additional tax to counterac the increased burden on sociey from shortened supply.
In most countries I am aware off, your properties get taxed, so by
buying more of it you are paying more taxes in the long run. It is not like we are not already there.
The real issue is not that people is hoarding but that properties go unused (if this is true at all). Given the expenses properties
represent, even before taxes kick in, keeping them unused is a
liability in itself for the propietor. So the question is "why are the properties not being used?"
Is it risky for the owner to rent the property? Is it hard to offer the property for rent? Here in Spain you don't offer a house for rent for pretty much the same reasons why you don't hire a person, for example.
If you are a bank and find yourself loaded up with flats that you got
as payments for unfullfilled mortages (which I think it is the case for most unused flats in Spain) you don't offer those flats for rent,
because renting them is more costly (in risks) than just hoarding them
and trying to sell them.
Specially in today's world, when if you refuse to accept somebody in
your flat because you think he is bad business, he can sue you for discrimination or whatever.
DaiTengu wrote to Dr. What <=-
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@MSGID: <604F4FD4.27836.dove-general@warensemble.com>
@REPLY: <60464957.50933.dove-general@dmine.net>
@TZ: c168
Re: Re: GAB
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Mar 08 2021 09:01 am
Lefties have no economic sense at all. They think that if a company charges $2 for a cup of coffee, the company gets all that money. They don't understand that after paying for everything that it takes to make that cup of money, they company is lucky to get $0.02 out of that $2.
"Leftie" here. I own/run a business. I, and my fellow "Lefties"
are quite-fucking-aware of how such things work.
On the other hand, it seems to appear you still think "Trickle down economics" work, although there's no evidence to support that.
Dream Master wrote to DaiTengu <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Humanity as a whole lacks the capability of equiping every single
individual of the planet with the minimum standards of living that
first worlders take for granted. If you check Greenpeace's stats you
notice that even 2nd tier burn through essential natural resources
faster than they can replenish them.
I hear a lot about moving away from shareholder capitalism and towards stakeholder capitalism. This is why Universal Basic Income has been promulgated
through government legislation despite facing steep opposition several years ago. The idea would be that multinational corporations, international banks, etc... along with the government, and we, the individual, would ALL have a stake in the way things are run. Due to mass employment caused by automation, corporate entities would face much higher tax bands than currently in existence
and, as such, they would provide individuals with a fixed basic income. Everyone would be entitled to this income stream, whether working or non-working. This would allow people not be become discouraged at the notion of
getting a job due to the rate of pay or hours on offer.
I agree, capitalism is not a suitable system for the future because it doesn't
take into account the huge number of people whose labour will be deemed redundant, even in a highly industrialised economy. Many people in the technology industry are saying that chips are going to be fabricated for pennies in the near future causing all nations, including China, to consider this problem.
And yes, the Liberal Party in Australia has stood up to China and Big
Tech. I dislike this party, but I have given them credit for this.
Finally they have redeeming qualities, and some impressive and bold
ones too. A lot of Austrlaians didn't appreciate what they were doing
with regards to Big Tech, and most couldn't see past the surface.
Corporation don't pay taxes, their customers do... It would be better to
put limits on (under|un)utilized assets a corporation can hold,
eliminating corporate taxes and forcing dividend payments, divestment or expansion. Then shareholders/owners will be payin
more taxes
individually, or there will be more investment/employment.
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
@VIA: VERT/PALANT
@MSGID: <6050112C.21791.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <604FE3C0.2105.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
@TZ: c168
Dream Master wrote to DaiTengu <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
you?
Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors
of being an American citizen?
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@VIA: VERT/TRN
@MSGID: <605025AA.16851.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <604FDBC9.49631.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
@TZ: fe5c
On 3/15/2021 3:41 AM, Boraxman wrote:
And yes, the Liberal Party in Australia has stood up to China and Big
Tech. I dislike this party, but I have given them credit for this.
Finally they have redeeming qualities, and some impressive and bold
ones too. A lot of Austrlaians didn't appreciate what they were doing
with regards to Big Tech, and most couldn't see past the surface.
I wish the Democrat party here would do much the same... definitely
not the party of the working class, or the populist view of the
public at this point... kind of seems like a fractured arm of the
CCP to some extent.
Of course the Republican party is just plain ineffectual and unable
to commit to anything that might disturb the status quo or stand
behind their own values.
Corporation don't pay taxes, their customers do... It would be better to
put limits on (under|un)utilized assets a corporation can hold,
eliminating corporate taxes and forcing dividend payments, divestment or expansion. Then shareholders/owners will be paying more taxes
individually, or there will be more investment/employment.
I'm less than convinced... that said, I'm okay with UBI if it could eliminate welfare programs that are currently abused, and would apply universally and be funded via a flat tax across the system. Removing
entire classes of tax deductions and simplifying the system would also help.
I'd also not mind if there were a tax on currency exchanges as well as
stock trades. This alone would do more than most progressive tax
programs and really only effect those trying to manipulate the system anyway.
While I'm pretty much libertarian, I'm pretty pragmatic about it and do think a system geared towards free market capitalism can work and that
there are more effective strategies for accomplishing most goals.
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of being an American citizen?
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
I wish the Democrat party here would do much the same... definitely not the party of the working class, or the populist view of the public at
this point... kind of seems like a fractured arm of the CCP to some extent.
Of course the Republican party is just plain ineffectual and unable to commit to anything that might disturb the status quo or stand behind
their own values.
Dr. What wrote to Gamgee <=-
@VIA: VERT/DMINE
@MSGID: <6050D4FC.51276.dove-general@dmine.net>
@REPLY: <6050112C.21791.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@TZ: c12c
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
I'm sure that Dream Master is well aware of this, but in his
ignorance thinks that he is one of the Elites.
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
you?
I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.
You are still in this belief that "Trickle Down Economics"
actually works when it doesn't. Executive compensation is
ridiculous when employees are getting screwed by menial raises,
horrible benefits (or none), and PTO policies that benefit no
one.
Executives get their "Golden Parachutes" even if they wrong
the company.
Executives should feel and experience the same pains the rank and
file do.
Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?
No. I think each classification should make a wage compensurate
with their skills and capabilities.
For example, entry level IT
should be paid at the lowest tier, senior at the next higher,
specialist, etc., etc.
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors
of being an American citizen?
Again with this whole Venezuela thing. So, you're telling me
that you're perfectly fine with people like Elon Musk who founded
Tesla and SpaceX should be worth billions while his assistant
should only make $60K/year even though she has approval
priviledge, goes everywhere he does, and can literaly run the
company in his absense?
The disparity in income is the problem.
Dr. What wrote to Gamgee <=-
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of being an American citizen?
You need to remember that people who thinks socialism is good
think it raises everyone up. To anyone with brains, we know that socialism only brings everyone down - except for the Elites at
the top.
I'm sure that Dream Master is well aware of this, but in his
ignorance thinks that he is one of the Elites.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <604F9308.25039.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <604E8E04.49598.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Sun Mar 14 2021 09:43 pm
Absolutely, which is why we need to change the system now. As it is now, the system is based on people "selling their labour" to owners of the means of production. Automation doesn't make labour worthless (I argue it already it), it makes humans redundant in production environments.
A system where humans are universally self-employed, i.e., all firms are workers coops doesn't fix this. But it changes the solution to one of "lets redistribute wealth" to "lets claim a property right over production where automation is concerned". Maybe by considering the nation is a co-worker, the nations input being based on how much automation there is.
Either way, fundamentally, the idea of having to "work for a living" will have to go, we WILL have to reevaluate our economic morality and transvaluate at least some of Capitalisms values. Capitalism served well in the past, but in its current form, is not suited for our future.
If that happens, it happens because our society is anti-human, and will be, I think, something that could further drive Western Civilisation into irrelevancy. If China can get this to work, and we just end up with an underclass because of our system, its all over. China is sort of Communist, so they could potentially adapt to this much faster. They already have strong government control and ownership, so its not such a leap for them. I can't see a way around this coming change without adopting something that looks like socialism or socialisation of the economy. We need solutions, and if we are constantly going to be dragging the economic concerns of the 1950s (Marxism!! Socialism!!) with us, we are toast.
I hear a lot about moving away from shareholder capitalism and towards stakeholder capitalism. This is why Universal Basic Income has been promulgated through government legislation despite facing steep
opposition several years ago. The idea would be that multinational corporations, international banks, etc... along with the government,
and we, the individual, would ALL have a stake in the way things are
run. Due to mass employment caused by automation, corporate entities
would face much higher tax bands than currently in existence and, as
such, they would provide individuals with a fixed basic income.
Everyone would be entitled to this income stream, whether working or non-working. This would allow people not be become discouraged at the notion of getting a job due to the rate of pay or hours on offer.
I agree, capitalism is not a suitable system for the future because it doesn't take into account the huge number of people whose labour will
be deemed redundant, even in a highly industrialised economy. Many
people in the technology industry are saying that chips are going to be fabricated for pennies in the near future causing all nations,
including China, to consider this problem.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <604F95D3.25040.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <604E8E08.49601.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Dream Master on
Sun Mar 14 2021 10:25 pm
The dollar has no intrinsic value, not since Nixon took you off the gold standard in 1971.
Exactly. There is no value to money. In all honesty, between countries, what really is money?
No value to money? I bet if you dropped a $100 note and it blew away, you would chase after it.
It is not money, it is currency. The intrinsic value is zero because it
is not a scare resource. The percieved value at the moment is greater
than nothing, and it may fluctuate and become higher or lower, but
given enough time, the dollar will become worthless which is what its
true value is.
The same is true for crypto-currencies, such as Bitcoin. One Bitcoin
may be percieved to be worth 60k dollars, and it may go higher before
it falls back to its intrinsic value of zero.
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
@MSGID: <6050112C.21791.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <604FE3C0.2105.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
Dream Master wrote to DaiTengu <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it really
make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of the company,
or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect you?
Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of being an American citizen?
Tracker1 wrote to Arelor <=-
@MSGID: <60501F86.16846.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <604EAB32.21756.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
On 3/14/2021 5:32 PM, Arelor wrote:
Humanity as a whole lacks the capability of equiping every single
individual of the planet with the minimum standards of living that
first worlders take for granted. If you check Greenpeace's stats you
notice that even 2nd tier burn through essential natural resources
faster than they can replenish them.
Capitalism has globally raised more people from poverty than any
socialist system in the history of humanity.
Socialism/Marxism/Communism have been tried and repeatedly failed.
While capitalism is far from perfect, it definitely has a much better track record.
The most successful socialist system is Germany which is, economically speaking, Fascist. Isn't it ironic, don't you think?
The only successful Communist country (China) has a horrible track
record, and has only been successful by leveraging its' own human
capital in trade with capitalist countries. China is only successful because of capitalism, not despite it. That doesn't even cover the horrible human rights abuses in China.
Every other attempt at Marxist-style Socialism has failed and many,
many, many people have been killed by the system, died of starvation or outright collapsed.
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
@MSGID: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6050C371.2140.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
you?
I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.
You keep saying that, but never explain *WHY* it matters.
You are still in this belief that "Trickle Down Economics"
actually works when it doesn't. Executive compensation is
ridiculous when employees are getting screwed by menial raises,
horrible benefits (or none), and PTO policies that benefit no
one.
So, you are under the (mistaken) belief that if the CEO was payed less, that money would instead be used for employee raises, benefits, and PTO policies? Really, you think that? Do you actually know *ANYTHING*
about running a business? Here's a free clue: the money would not be used for those things.
Executives get their "Golden Parachutes" even if they wrong
the company.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on their contract.
Again it raises the question of why that would matter to you. It
doesn't affect you in *ANY* *WAY*, especially if you are not even an employee of that same company. You clearly don't understand how things come out of certain/different "pots of money". Perhaps a class or two
in business administration at your local community college would
benefit you.
Executives should feel and experience the same pains the rank and
file do.
Why? Does the Captain of a cruise boat sleep in the same quarters as
the rank and file passengers? Does he eat the same food? What you
fail to understand is that the Captain (or the CEO of a company) wasn't *ALWAYS* the CEO. He worked his way up to get there, and the pay and benefits go up as he climbed the ladder. What a concept!
Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?
No. I think each classification should make a wage compensurate
with their skills and capabilities.
So, at a given company, what makes you think that isn't the case? Do
you think an assembly line worker has the skills to manage a huge corporation? Why wouldn't the person who does have those skills be
paid a LOT more than that worker?
For example, entry level IT
should be paid at the lowest tier, senior at the next higher,
specialist, etc., etc.
That's already the case, everywhere that I know of. Eventually you
reach the top/management/executive level.
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors
of being an American citizen?
Again with this whole Venezuela thing. So, you're telling me
that you're perfectly fine with people like Elon Musk who founded
Tesla and SpaceX should be worth billions while his assistant
should only make $60K/year even though she has approval
priviledge, goes everywhere he does, and can literaly run the
company in his absense?
Yes, I'm perfectly OK with that, even though that isn't entirely true
the way you've written it. She made more than 60K, she certainly did
NOT have approval priviledge over anything/everything, and it's
conjecture to say she could run the company in his absence. Very
standard Lefty tactics you employed there, but very obvious to those
who know how you guys try to quietly steer the facts in your favor.
The disparity in income is the problem.
None of what you've said above even *ATTEMPTS* to explain why that is a problem, which is why you call me a broken record. I keep asking you
to explain, but..... you dodge the question, and recite from the crib notes given out at a Crazy Bernie rally.
Here's the deal: Income should ***NOT*** be equal for everyone, and
what somebody else makes is none of your business (assuming they're not doing the same job as you are, of course). There should be large gaps
in pay scales, to incentivize people to strive to move up. It's part
of what we call "The American Dream".
The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If everyone
was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to advance, or even
to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother? They'll still get
paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots. Is that what you socialists want?
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
;-)
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it really
make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of the company,
or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect you?
Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of being an American citizen?
Ahh, the old "Venezuela" gambit... Nice try, but I'm not buying
that the only choice is between Venezuela and massive wealth
inequality.
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If everyone
was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to advance, or even
to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother? They'll still get
paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots. Is that what you socialists want?
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
;-)
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now
that you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to
people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1%
is on their side.
Are YOU a CEO?
Gamgee wrote to Dr. What <=-
I'm sure that Dream Master is well aware of this, but in his
ignorance thinks that he is one of the Elites.
Honestly I'm not sure he's aware of that. He comes across as one who's slurped FAR too much of the Bernie koolaid to ever recover. I'm hoping
he will one day actually move to Venezuela so he can be happy.
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
you?
I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.
You keep saying that, but never explain *WHY* it matters.
You can issue your own currency, but its still scarce, and it has little value not because of supply and demand of the currency itself, but because the currency won't
backed by economic activity.
Secondly, currency is scarce. You can't just make a $100 note easily. It is difficult to, and illegal to, create a $100 note.
Corporation don't pay taxes, their customers do... It would be
better to put limits on (under|un)utilized assets a corporation
can hold, eliminating corporate taxes and forcing dividend
payments, divestment or expansion. Then shareholders/owners
will be payin more taxes individually, or there will be more
investment/employment.
Heh, they are planning another tax rise in Spain and the word I
was hearing in the corridors was "I have to talk to the
accountants to see if we can pass the overcost to customers."
I don't like limits on the ammount of assets you can posses as a
firm because I haven‡'t seen such system well implemented. Here
in Spain, if you have certain sorts of economic asociations you
are supposed to pay a BIG (think 75% or more) of your surplus as
dividends. If you are Telef¢nica or another big corporation, it
does not matter much because with the remaining % you can still
develop your firm to great lengths. If you are a small shoe shop,
the % you are left is very low so if you want to make some
investments you are going to need to apply for loans or whatever.
I also think that vultures serve a purpose. There are firms here
whose business model is to hoard rare spare parts and rare hardware components nobody wants, for example. Essentially, they will wait
until some screw factory starts producing screws that sell very
badly (screw factories produce screws by batches for the most part,
a given type of screw per batch) and buy the whole batch.
There is also the issue that a lot of unussed assets are unused
against the owners's will. For example, your factory goes out
of business and now you have building and lands that are not
producing anything, but you can't get to sell it either for
whatever reason.
This reminds me of a conversation in a board game forum, in which
people was complaining because other people was purchasing cheap
games elsewhere and posting them for sale in the forum with a
profit margin. Well, they may be filthy speculators, but as it
turns out, they are taking games from people who has them and does
not know what to do with them, to the forum people who knows what
the board games are really worth, so...
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it really
make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of the company,
or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect you?
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of
being an American citizen?
You need to remember that people who thinks socialism is good think it
raises everyone up. To anyone with brains, we know that socialism only brings everyone down - except for the Elites at the top.
"Yes, I know that the people are starving, but I'm the leader and I **need** that 7 course dinner for my friends to have the energy to keep the country running."
I'm sure that Dream Master is well aware of this, but in his ignorance thinks that he is one of the Elites.
But we need to get out of this "Left vs. Right" or "Democrat vs.
Republican" thinking. That is not the fight.
The fight is a group of Elites who think that they have the right
to rule and that they can run everything better vs. literally
everyone else (and that includes the morons who support the Elites).
Exactly. Instead of bringing the lower class up into the middle class, they'd rather bring the middle class down into the lower class. The politicians remain the only "Elites" left, and have utter control.
Technology, medicine, science, better agricultural techniques lifted
people out of poverty.
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people,
confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
side.
Are YOU a CEO?
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
@VIA: VERT/PALANT
@MSGID: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6050C371.2140.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
@TZ: c168
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
you?
I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.
You keep saying that, but never explain *WHY* it matters.
You are still in this belief that "Trickle Down Economics"
actually works when it doesn't. Executive compensation is
ridiculous when employees are getting screwed by menial raises,
horrible benefits (or none), and PTO policies that benefit no
one.
So, you are under the (mistaken) belief that if the CEO was payed
less, that money would instead be used for employee raises,
benefits, and PTO policies? Really, you think that? Do you
actually know *ANYTHING* about running a business? Here's a free
clue: the money would not be used for those things.
Executives get their "Golden Parachutes" even if they wrong
the company.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on their contract.
Again it raises the question of why that would matter to you. It
doesn't affect you in *ANY* *WAY*, especially if you are not even an employee of that same company. You clearly don't understand how
things come out of certain/different "pots of money". Perhaps a
class or two in business administration at your local community
college would benefit you.
Executives should feel and experience the same pains the rank and
file do.
Why? Does the Captain of a cruise boat sleep in the same quarters
as the rank and file passengers? Does he eat the same food? What
you fail to understand is that the Captain (or the CEO of a company) wasn't *ALWAYS* the CEO. He worked his way up to get there, and the
pay and benefits go up as he climbed the ladder. What a concept!
Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?
No. I think each classification should make a wage compensurate
with their skills and capabilities.
So, at a given company, what makes you think that isn't the case?
Do you think an assembly line worker has the skills to manage a huge corporation? Why wouldn't the person who does have those skills be
paid a LOT more than that worker?
For example, entry level IT
should be paid at the lowest tier, senior at the next higher,
specialist, etc., etc.
That's already the case, everywhere that I know of. Eventually you
reach the top/management/executive level.
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors
of being an American citizen?
Again with this whole Venezuela thing. So, you're telling me
that you're perfectly fine with people like Elon Musk who founded
Tesla and SpaceX should be worth billions while his assistant
should only make $60K/year even though she has approval
priviledge, goes everywhere he does, and can literaly run the
company in his absense?
Yes, I'm perfectly OK with that, even though that isn't entirely
true the way you've written it. She made more than 60K, she
certainly did NOT have approval priviledge over anything/everything,
and it's conjecture to say she could run the company in his absence.
Very standard Lefty tactics you employed there, but very obvious to
those who know how you guys try to quietly steer the facts in your
favor.
The disparity in income is the problem.
None of what you've said above even *ATTEMPTS* to explain why that
is a problem, which is why you call me a broken record. I keep
asking you to explain, but..... you dodge the question, and recite
from the crib notes given out at a Crazy Bernie rally.
Here's the deal: Income should ***NOT*** be equal for everyone, and
what somebody else makes is none of your business (assuming they're
not doing the same job as you are, of course). There should be
large gaps in pay scales, to incentivize people to strive to move
up. It's part of what we call "The American Dream".
The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If
everyone was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to
advance, or even to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother?
They'll still get paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots.
Is that what you socialists want?
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll
come to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the
guns? ;-)
Gamgee wrote to Dr. What <=-
@VIA: VERT/PALANT
@MSGID: <60517059.21823.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6050D4FC.51276.dove-general@dmine.net>
@TZ: c168
Dr. What wrote to Gamgee <=-
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of being an American citizen?
You need to remember that people who thinks socialism is good
think it raises everyone up. To anyone with brains, we know that socialism only brings everyone down - except for the Elites at
the top.
Exactly. Instead of bringing the lower class up into the middle
class, they'd rather bring the middle class down into the lower
class. The politicians remain the only "Elites" left, and have
utter control.
I'm sure that Dream Master is well aware of this, but in his
ignorance thinks that he is one of the Elites.
Honestly I'm not sure he's aware of that. He comes across as one
who's slurped FAR too much of the Bernie koolaid to ever recover.
I'm hoping he will one day actually move to Venezuela so he can be
happy.
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
@VIA: VERT/MSRDBBS
@MSGID: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
@REPLY: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@TZ: 9258
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
@MSGID: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6050C371.2140.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
;-)
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
side.
Are YOU a CEO?
Having a strong middle class is important, and the class divide of the
upper class is growing a lot since the 1970's. I don't think socialist controls work. I do think guidelines that encourage competition, better utilization of assets and fluidity and even eliminating corporate taxes
can better serve society. Corporations serve a societal purpose, but
that gets clouded at scale.
This reminds me of a conversation in a board game forum, in which people was complaining because other people was purchasing
cheap games elsewhere and posting them for sale in the forum with a profit margin. Well, they may be filthy speculators, but as
it turns out, they are taking games from people who has them and does not know what to do with them, to the forum people who
knows what the board games are really worth, so...
Do you trust corporations, international banks? I sure don't. Thats the problem, the "stakeholders" are bad faith actors. And when we say "international bank" or "corporation", we are talking about the people at the top of these institutions, concentrated power.
Bitcoin isn't backed by any economic, which is why it is hard to value.
With the Australian dollar, you can look at the Australian economy to help valuate it.
Secondly, currency is scarce. You can't just make a $100 note easily. It is difficult to, and illegal to, create a $100 note.
You can issue your own currency, but its still scarce, and it has little value not because of supply and demand of the currency itself, but because the currency won't be backed by economic activity.
Because it does. Why should employees of McDonald's be making minimum
wage while the CEO makes 1000x that? Why should the CEO of Space X make 1000x that of an Engineer who actually does the hard work? Knowing that your contributions are equal to that of senior leadership is important
and knowing that your pay is just as important as theirs is also equally important.
Tracker1 wrote to Gamgee <=-
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it really
make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of the company,
or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect you?
I once worked for a company where the CEO kicked out a Sr. VP for
a telecom company (vendor) because he was bragging about firing
10k people so he could get a 6 figure bonus, even though he'd
have to hire that many back the following quarter. When
divisions are laid off, so the quarter numbers look better and
some Sr. Executive gets a fat bonus, it does effect people.
I'm all for capitalism, I'd rather see positions that raise all
ships. Instead of putting salary caps, and if I ever form another
company, this will be part of charter bylaws and sale of the
company in that no member of the company can make more than 100x
the lowest paid person in the company projected in the course of
a year, and nobody can make more than 2x their nearest
subordinate. This way, if you want to make more, you need to
bring those under you up with you. I'd also have this apply to
vendor staff working in service for the company as well.
Tracker1 wrote to Gamgee <=-
Exactly. Instead of bringing the lower class up into the middle class, they'd rather bring the middle class down into the lower class. The politicians remain the only "Elites" left, and have utter control.
I'd say the 1% will still be the 1%.
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
you?
I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.
You keep saying that, but never explain *WHY* it matters.
Because it does.
Why should employees of McDonald's be making
minimum wage while the CEO makes 1000x that? Why should the CEO
of Space X make 1000x that of an Engineer who actually does the
hard work?
Knowing that your contributions are equal to that of
senior leadership is important and knowing that your pay is just
as important as theirs is also equally important.
You are still in this belief that "Trickle Down Economics"
actually works when it doesn't. Executive compensation is
ridiculous when employees are getting screwed by menial raises,
horrible benefits (or none), and PTO policies that benefit no
one.
So, you are under the (mistaken) belief that if the CEO was payed
less, that money would instead be used for employee raises,
benefits, and PTO policies? Really, you think that? Do you
actually know *ANYTHING* about running a business? Here's a free
clue: the money would not be used for those things.
I do know something about running a business and no, reducing the
CEO pay does not trickle down. Instead, it shows concern for the employee.
Executives get their "Golden Parachutes" even if they wrong
the company.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on their contract.
Again it raises the question of why that would matter to you. It
doesn't affect you in *ANY* *WAY*, especially if you are not even an employee of that same company. You clearly don't understand how
things come out of certain/different "pots of money". Perhaps a
class or two in business administration at your local community
college would benefit you.
There you go again, assuming... Too many years of Business
Administration and Management classes in college have contributed
to my understanding. Economics as well. My positions are my
own. I disagree with certain business practices and agree with
others.
Executives should feel and experience the same pains the rank and
file do.
Why? Does the Captain of a cruise boat sleep in the same quarters
as the rank and file passengers? Does he eat the same food? What
you fail to understand is that the Captain (or the CEO of a company) wasn't *ALWAYS* the CEO. He worked his way up to get there, and the
pay and benefits go up as he climbed the ladder. What a concept!
Again, context. Should a CEO make $100mm/yr while the entry
level employee makes $24K/yr? You think this is fine, your
opinion, I disagree.
Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?
No. I think each classification should make a wage compensurate
with their skills and capabilities.
So, at a given company, what makes you think that isn't the case?
Do you think an assembly line worker has the skills to manage a huge corporation? Why wouldn't the person who does have those skills be
paid a LOT more than that worker?
Does the CEO have the skills that the assembly line worker has?
No. Does the assembly worker have the skills of the CEO? No.
Executive compensation is about retention. I've seen too many
CEOs destroy a compnay to the point of bankruptcy yet are still
paid to the day the company is sold off. Is this fair and
equitable to the rank and file?
For example, entry level IT
should be paid at the lowest tier, senior at the next higher,
specialist, etc., etc.
That's already the case, everywhere that I know of. Eventually you
reach the top/management/executive level.
Companies call them tiers but the bands are wide open. Not
equitable.
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors
of being an American citizen?
Again with this whole Venezuela thing. So, you're telling me
that you're perfectly fine with people like Elon Musk who founded
Tesla and SpaceX should be worth billions while his assistant
should only make $60K/year even though she has approval
priviledge, goes everywhere he does, and can literaly run the
company in his absense?
Yes, I'm perfectly OK with that, even though that isn't entirely
true the way you've written it. She made more than 60K, she
certainly did NOT have approval priviledge over anything/everything,
and it's conjecture to say she could run the company in his absence.
Very standard Lefty tactics you employed there, but very obvious to
those who know how you guys try to quietly steer the facts in your
favor.
Valid point about her position. She did have specific approval
authority. Her complain / concern is real.
The disparity in income is the problem.
None of what you've said above even *ATTEMPTS* to explain why that
is a problem, which is why you call me a broken record. I keep
asking you to explain, but..... you dodge the question, and recite
from the crib notes given out at a Crazy Bernie rally.
Here's the deal: Income should ***NOT*** be equal for everyone, and
what somebody else makes is none of your business (assuming they're
not doing the same job as you are, of course). There should be
large gaps in pay scales, to incentivize people to strive to move
up. It's part of what we call "The American Dream".
The American Dream is something written too many years ago. Now,
the American Dream is just to survive.
The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If
everyone was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to
advance, or even to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother?
They'll still get paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots.
Is that what you socialists want?
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll
come to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the
guns? ;-)
Us Liberals have guns, too. :)
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of being an American citizen?
You need to remember that people who thinks socialism is good
think it raises everyone up. To anyone with brains, we know that socialism only brings everyone down - except for the Elites at
the top.
I believe in the appropriate use of socialism. If you object to socialism, reject the checks you'll be getting from the
government over the next week or two. Reject Medicare. Reject
Social Security. Reject Unemployment Benefits. You can't keep
screaming "Socialism--BAD" yet are willing to accept the funds.
Again, I am not talking about turning into a socialist nation but
a nation that actually takes care of its people. If people can
stop worry about medical bills, education debt, etc., they can
bring themselves further and further up.
Exactly. Instead of bringing the lower class up into the middle
class, they'd rather bring the middle class down into the lower
class. The politicians remain the only "Elites" left, and have
utter control.
I'm sure that Dream Master is well aware of this, but in his
ignorance thinks that he is one of the Elites.
Honestly I'm not sure he's aware of that. He comes across as one
who's slurped FAR too much of the Bernie koolaid to ever recover.
I'm hoping he will one day actually move to Venezuela so he can be
happy.
The middle class has progressively been destroyed by Republican administrations both at the state and federal level. The
disparity between the lower class and upper class keeps getting
bigger. Those in the middle class, like me, keep seeing it
harder to get ahead.
I believe in the appropriate use of socialism. If you object to
socialism, reject the checks you'll be getting from the government over
the next week or two. Reject Medicare. Reject Social Security. Reject Unemployment Benefits. You can't keep screaming "Socialism--BAD" yet
are willing to accept the funds.
Yet, Conservatives keep touting the importance of the 1% helping the
rest. They don't. Trickle Down Economics DOES NOT WORK!
I thik the proof is in the pudding. A poor dude in certain hellhole coutries
You know, when people say "My country's currency is backed
by our powerful economy" what they really mean is they have
a currency that isn't anchored to any stable equivalence.
They pretty much tell you "This 100 $credit note is worth a
certain ammount of goods and services, which is subject to
variation, and you have to trust us to deliver and upkeep
that value."
ie. "This money is worth something because we tell you it
is, but the worth can change at any minute because me says
so."
I have the constant feeling that fiat currencies are like
pyramid schemes. They only work for as long as people
believes in them.
Having a strong middle class is important, and the class divide of the
upper class is growing a lot since the 1970's. I don't think socialist
controls work. I do think guidelines that encourage competition, better
utilization of assets and fluidity and even eliminating corporate taxes
can better serve society. Corporations serve a societal purpose, but
that gets clouded at scale.
Everything you just wrote I agree with, but I also want to add that corporate taxes are critical for America. If we eliminate corporate taxation, we start to impact our economy. Should the taxes be as high
as they are, no.
I'm all for capitalism, I'd rather see positions that raise all
ships. Instead of putting salary caps, and if I ever form another
company, this will be part of charter bylaws and sale of the
company in that no member of the company can make more than 100x
the lowest paid person in the company projected in the course of
a year, and nobody can make more than 2x their nearest
subordinate. This way, if you want to make more, you need to
bring those under you up with you. I'd also have this apply to
vendor staff working in service for the company as well.
That all sounds good, but probably not very realistic. People would get "slotted" into whatever payscale is appropriate, and never be able to
move up. How can you "bring those under you up with you"? It's not up
to you, usually, what those folks are making. So if they can't ALL be promoted, you can't either. That sure doesn't seem very fair to me.
Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-
I ask you the same thing that he won't give a straight answer about -
why does it matter to you what a CEO makes? Why do you think that
affects you, or is "wrong"?
Gamgee wrote to Tracker1 <=-
I once worked for a company where the CEO kicked out a Sr. VP for
a telecom company (vendor) because he was bragging about firing
10k people so he could get a 6 figure bonus, even though he'd
have to hire that many back the following quarter. When
divisions are laid off, so the quarter numbers look better and
some Sr. Executive gets a fat bonus, it does effect people.
Perhaps, but that sounds like a one-off. Rare, at best.
Gamgee wrote to Tracker1 <=-
Exactly. It's a sure bet. So the change will be that instead of an
upper 1%, then a majority in the middle class, and some in the lower class...... we'd have the same upper 1%, then everyone else in the
LOWER class. Goodbye middle class. Welcome to socialism.
Tracker1 wrote to Dream Master <=-
Again, for the most part, corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do.
Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6051F8D1.21830.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6051DBF4.49689.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it really
make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of the company,
or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect you?
Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of being an American citizen?
Ahh, the old "Venezuela" gambit... Nice try, but I'm not buying
that the only choice is between Venezuela and massive wealth
inequality.
Ahh, so you admit that the massive wealth equality (socialism) in Venezuela is a failed model/method of running a government. Strange
then, why you and Dream Master would wish such a thing for the USA.
I ask you the same thing that he won't give a straight answer about -
why does it matter to you what a CEO makes? Why do you think that
affects you, or is "wrong"?
Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6051F8D1.21831.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If everyone
was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to advance, or even
to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother? They'll still get
paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots. Is that what you socialists want?
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
;-)
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now
that you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to
people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1%
is on their side.
Your first sentence there is idiotic. LOL at the second one; I'm not confused at all about capitalism. What does confuse me is why people still think socialism is a valid solution, after seeing that it has
failed every single place it's been tried. <BOGGLE>
Are YOU a CEO?
No.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-valu
@MSGID: <6051FFA4.21833.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6051DBF2.49688.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Wed Mar 17 2021 09:26 pm
You can issue your own currency, but its still scarce, and it has little
e not because of supply and demand of the currency itself, but because
the currency won't
backed by economic activity.
You know, when people say "My country's currency is backed by our
powerful economy" what they really mean is they have a currency that
isn't anchored to any stable equivalence.
They pretty much tell you "This 100 $credit note is worth a certain ammount of goods and services, which is subject to variation, and you
have to trust us to deliver and upkeep that value."
ie. "This money is worth something because we tell you it is, but the worth can change at any minute because me says so."
I have the constant feeling that fiat currencies are like pyramid
schemes. They only work for as long as people believes in them.
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60521E8B.59070.dove_dove-gen@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6051DBF2.49688.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Wed Mar 17 2021 09:26 pm
Secondly, currency is scarce. You can't just make a $100 note easily. It is difficult to, and illegal to, create a $100 note.
Though with payments often happening electronically, you don't always
need physical cash to make a payment or transfer money. Seems to me a
lot of money could be created out of nowhere electronically.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6051EEF7.16896.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6051DBF4.49690.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/17/2021 3:33 AM, Boraxman wrote:
Technology, medicine, science, better agricultural techniques lifted
people out of poverty.
And those kinds of things don't typically advance nearly as well or quickly in Socialist societies vs Capitalist. In terms of agriculture
in particular, socialism is often regressive even. Hence massive starvation that tends to sweep socialist nations.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6051EF5F.16897.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/17/2021 3:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people,
confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
side.
Are YOU a CEO?
And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there isn't
a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class disparity.
Dream Master wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60521AC6.2172.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
@REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
@VIA: VERT/MSRDBBS
@MSGID: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
@REPLY: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@TZ: 9258
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
@MSGID: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6050C371.2140.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
;-)
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
side.
Are YOU a CEO?
Precisely my problem with these statements against what I keep saying. CEOs don't give a rats ass about the rank and file, they will take what they want and move on when they feel enough positive, or negative, has been done. Look at Sears. Instead of bringing in a CEO that was
focused on rebuilding the company, the CEO, Eddie Lampert, tore the company apart into multiple corporate silos having each company fight
for overall resources. This adversely affected employees, product, and eventually, the company. Lampert and his 1% destroyed Sears.
Yet, Conservatives keep touting the importance of the 1% helping the
rest. They don't. Trickle Down Economics DOES NOT WORK!
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60524899.25115.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <6051DBF2.49688.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Wed Mar 17 2021 09:26 pm
Bitcoin isn't backed by any economic, which is why it is hard to value.
With the Australian dollar, you can look at the Australian economy to help valuate it.
Secondly, currency is scarce. You can't just make a $100 note easily. It is difficult to, and illegal to, create a $100 note.
You can issue your own currency, but its still scarce, and it has little value not because of supply and demand of the currency itself, but because the currency won't be backed by economic activity.
Fiat currencies are not scarce. An infinite number of dollars can be created by the Federal Reserve, as most are digitised rather than
printed into existence. US dollars are as scarce as Zimbabwean dollars, which turned out not to be particularly scare when President Mugabe had the misconception he was in the possession of a money tree planeted in
his back yard.
Bitcoin, along with other crypto-currencies & fiat, are not backed by
an underlying asset therefore they are not considered scarce by any economic definition of the word. You cannot hold a Bitcoin, nor can you use it in the manufacturing process; and other than percieved value, it has no intrinsic value at all. It's the dot com bubble all over again, fools gold.
Dr. What wrote to Gamgee <=-
@MSGID: <6051FDD1.51296.dove-general@dmine.net>
@REPLY: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
you?
I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.
You keep saying that, but never explain *WHY* it matters.
He can't explain. He can only parrot what his handlers tell him.
So, according to Google, the president of GM makes $21.6 million.
Google says that the number of GM Employees is 164,000.
So a simple calculation of $21,600,000 / 164,000 = $131.70
So if the GM President gave her salary to the workers, they's only get $132 each, per year. I spend more on coffee per year.
Looking at it from a different point of view:
GM makes 6.8 million cars per year.
The GM President's salary represents $3 per car.
Google reports that the salary range for a GM worker is $38,344 to $79,867. So let's figure $59,000 on average.
$59,000 * 164,000 = $9,676,000,000 paid to employees
$9,676,000,000 / 6,800,000 = $1422.94
So out of every car sold, the GM President gets only $3, while the
workers get $1423.
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
@MSGID: <60521AC6.2170.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
@REPLY: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-
@VIA: VERT/PALANT
@MSGID: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6050C371.2140.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
@TZ: c168
Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
unacceptable.
Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
you?
I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.
You keep saying that, but never explain *WHY* it matters.
Because it does. Why should employees of McDonald's be making minimum wage while the CEO makes 1000x that? Why should the CEO of Space X
make 1000x that of an Engineer who actually does the hard work?
Knowing that your contributions are equal to that of senior leadership
is important and knowing that your pay is just as important as theirs
is also equally important.
You are still in this belief that "Trickle Down Economics"
actually works when it doesn't. Executive compensation is
ridiculous when employees are getting screwed by menial raises,
horrible benefits (or none), and PTO policies that benefit no
one.
So, you are under the (mistaken) belief that if the CEO was payed
less, that money would instead be used for employee raises,
benefits, and PTO policies? Really, you think that? Do you
actually know *ANYTHING* about running a business? Here's a free
clue: the money would not be used for those things.
I do know something about running a business and no, reducing the CEO
pay does not trickle down. Instead, it shows concern for the employee.
Executives get their "Golden Parachutes" even if they wrong
the company.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on their contract.
Again it raises the question of why that would matter to you. It
doesn't affect you in *ANY* *WAY*, especially if you are not even an employee of that same company. You clearly don't understand how
things come out of certain/different "pots of money". Perhaps a
class or two in business administration at your local community
college would benefit you.
There you go again, assuming... Too many years of Business
Administration and Management classes in college have contributed to my understanding. Economics as well. My positions are my own. I
disagree with certain business practices and agree with others.
Executives should feel and experience the same pains the rank and
file do.
Why? Does the Captain of a cruise boat sleep in the same quarters
as the rank and file passengers? Does he eat the same food? What
you fail to understand is that the Captain (or the CEO of a company) wasn't *ALWAYS* the CEO. He worked his way up to get there, and the
pay and benefits go up as he climbed the ladder. What a concept!
Again, context. Should a CEO make $100mm/yr while the entry level employee makes $24K/yr? You think this is fine, your opinion, I
disagree.
Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?
No. I think each classification should make a wage compensurate
with their skills and capabilities.
So, at a given company, what makes you think that isn't the case?
Do you think an assembly line worker has the skills to manage a huge corporation? Why wouldn't the person who does have those skills be
paid a LOT more than that worker?
Does the CEO have the skills that the assembly line worker has? No.
Does the assembly worker have the skills of the CEO? No. Executive compensation is about retention. I've seen too many CEOs destroy a compnay to the point of bankruptcy yet are still paid to the day the company is sold off. Is this fair and equitable to the rank and file?
For example, entry level IT
should be paid at the lowest tier, senior at the next higher,
specialist, etc., etc.
That's already the case, everywhere that I know of. Eventually you
reach the top/management/executive level.
Companies call them tiers but the bands are wide open. Not equitable.
Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors
of being an American citizen?
Again with this whole Venezuela thing. So, you're telling me
that you're perfectly fine with people like Elon Musk who founded
Tesla and SpaceX should be worth billions while his assistant
should only make $60K/year even though she has approval
priviledge, goes everywhere he does, and can literaly run the
company in his absense?
Yes, I'm perfectly OK with that, even though that isn't entirely
true the way you've written it. She made more than 60K, she
certainly did NOT have approval priviledge over anything/everything,
and it's conjecture to say she could run the company in his absence.
Very standard Lefty tactics you employed there, but very obvious to
those who know how you guys try to quietly steer the facts in your
favor.
Valid point about her position. She did have specific approval
authority. Her complain / concern is real.
The disparity in income is the problem.
None of what you've said above even *ATTEMPTS* to explain why that
is a problem, which is why you call me a broken record. I keep
asking you to explain, but..... you dodge the question, and recite
from the crib notes given out at a Crazy Bernie rally.
Here's the deal: Income should ***NOT*** be equal for everyone, and
what somebody else makes is none of your business (assuming they're
not doing the same job as you are, of course). There should be
large gaps in pay scales, to incentivize people to strive to move
up. It's part of what we call "The American Dream".
The American Dream is something written too many years ago. Now, the American Dream is just to survive.
The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If
everyone was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to
advance, or even to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother?
They'll still get paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots.
Is that what you socialists want?
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll
come to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the
guns? ;-)
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6051EF5F.16897.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/17/2021 3:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
side.
Are YOU a CEO?
And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there isn't a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class disparity.
You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising
the current ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead to it.
This is how Capitalism works. It indoctrinates people into being the lap-dogs for Capital and those who control it. It's n
just an economic system, it is a set of values, it relies on people accepting Capitalist MORALITY. These arguments are not
about economics. It's defending a morality, a morality that serves the 1%.
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
Ahh, the old "Venezuela" gambit... Nice try, but I'm not buying
that the only choice is between Venezuela and massive wealth
inequality.
Ahh, so you admit that the massive wealth equality (socialism) in Venezuela is a failed model/method of running a government. Strange
then, why you and Dream Master would wish such a thing for the USA.
I ask you the same thing that he won't give a straight answer about -
why does it matter to you what a CEO makes? Why do you think that
affects you, or is "wrong"?
I won't speak for Dream Master but the idea that I'm wishing or
advocating a Venezuelan type economy is a product of your
fanciful imagination and desire to trot out talking points than
from any rational analysis of what I've actually said.
As for CEO's, wealth inequality is a major, major social problem,
and directly affects me. It affects my nation.
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If everyone
was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to advance, or even
to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother? They'll still get
paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots. Is that what you socialists want?
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
;-)
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now
that you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to
people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1%
is on their side.
Your first sentence there is idiotic. LOL at the second one; I'm not confused at all about capitalism. What does confuse me is why people still think socialism is a valid solution, after seeing that it has
failed every single place it's been tried. <BOGGLE>
Are YOU a CEO?
No.
OK, so what do you have to gain from the growing disparity? I
tend not to shill for things that don't benefit me. But I'm
wierd like that.
Also, you are failing to see that the Socailist/Capitalist
dichotomy is a spook. Reality is not a choice between Marxism
and our specific form of Capitalism. There are many ways we
could vary, modify, evolve things. If you can't see that, then
you can't possibly contribute anything meaningful.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising the current ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead to it.
You are not arguing for Communism, but you are arguing for an
economic model that is surprisingly close (ie. a non-Marxism
inspired flavor of Socialism, similar to the one advocated by
classic Fascist groups).
Dr. What wrote to Arelor <=-
I've never heard Capitalism described as a "scarcity economy" other
than when a scarcity occurs, Capitalism tends to eliminate it.
Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
You are assuming that there is a very fixed amount of wealth that would
go to wages, and that the CEO's salary is coming from what would have otherwise gone to workers.
And isn't that how the Roman Empire collapsed? They eliminated the middle class?
Those who do not study (or study under Leftie "professors") history
are doomed to repeat it.
Fiat currencies are not scarce. An infinite number of dollars can be created by the Federal Reserve, as most are digitised rather than printed into existence. US dollars are as scarce as Zimbabwean dollars, which turned out not to be particularly scare when President Mugabe had the misconception he was in the possession of a money tree planeted in his back yard.
Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that, but they don't, and arne't going to do it tomorrow.
Trust.
The same is true for crypto-currencies, such as Bitcoin. One
Bitcoin may be percieved to be worth 60k dollars, and it may
go higher before it falls back to its intrinsic value of
zero.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-f
@MSGID: <60546B73.21904.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6053DEBB.49756.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on
Thu Mar 18 2021 10:37 pm
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6051EF5F.16897.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/17/2021 3:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
side.
Are YOU a CEO?
And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there isn't a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class disparity.
You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER argued
or Communism. I don't believe that criticisingle
the current ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would
ad to it.
You are not arguing for Communism, but you are arguing for an economic model that is surprisingly close (ie. a non-Marxism inspired flavor of Socialism, similar to the one advocated by classic Fascist groups).
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-lap-dog
@MSGID: <60546CB0.21905.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6053DEBD.49757.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Dream Master on
Thu Mar 18 2021 10:57 pm
This is how Capitalism works. It indoctrinates people into being the
s for Capital and those who control it. It's naccepting
just an economic system, it is a set of values, it relies on people
Capitalist MORALITY. These arguments are not
about economics. It's defending a morality, a morality that serves the 1%.
For that matter, the groups that have usually defended the sort of economic model you propose have done so by packaging those models as a
set of values to be sold to the masses.
Ideologies are just a combination of goals to achieve and ideas for achieving them. Obviously they sustain themselves over moral
foundations. Otherwise ideologies would consist of "I am supporting whatever works for me, even if I screw everybody else, because fuck
it."
Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60549FD6.21907.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6053DEB5.49751.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
Ahh, the old "Venezuela" gambit... Nice try, but I'm not buying
that the only choice is between Venezuela and massive wealth
inequality.
Ahh, so you admit that the massive wealth equality (socialism) in Venezuela is a failed model/method of running a government. Strange
then, why you and Dream Master would wish such a thing for the USA.
I ask you the same thing that he won't give a straight answer about -
why does it matter to you what a CEO makes? Why do you think that
affects you, or is "wrong"?
I won't speak for Dream Master but the idea that I'm wishing or
advocating a Venezuelan type economy is a product of your
fanciful imagination and desire to trot out talking points than
from any rational analysis of what I've actually said.
Uh-huh. Well, what you said is right up there on display.
As for CEO's, wealth inequality is a major, major social problem,
and directly affects me. It affects my nation.
So..... just like Dream Master, you are quite sure it's a huge problem, and yet.... you can't just say in straight language what the problem actually *IS*. LOL. Talk about "talking points".
You're both hypocrites and CNN talking-head regurgitators.
Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60549FD6.21908.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <6053DEB5.49752.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-
The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If everyone
was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to advance, or even
to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother? They'll still get
paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots. Is that what you socialists want?
Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
;-)
I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now
that you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to
people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1%
is on their side.
Your first sentence there is idiotic. LOL at the second one; I'm not confused at all about capitalism. What does confuse me is why people still think socialism is a valid solution, after seeing that it has
failed every single place it's been tried. <BOGGLE>
Are YOU a CEO?
No.
OK, so what do you have to gain from the growing disparity? I
tend not to shill for things that don't benefit me. But I'm
wierd like that.
I don't have anything to gain from your perceived disparity. Why do
you assume that I do? I'm not "shilling" for anything. I just don't worry about stuff that doesn't affect me. You should try that.
Also, you are failing to see that the Socailist/Capitalist
dichotomy is a spook. Reality is not a choice between Marxism
and our specific form of Capitalism. There are many ways we
could vary, modify, evolve things. If you can't see that, then
you can't possibly contribute anything meaningful.
The current model is under continuous evolution, especially so in the
last year and a half. If you haven't seen that, you aren't paying much attention.
Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6054B580.51384.dove-general@dmine.net>
@REPLY: <6053DEC0.49759.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
You are assuming that there is a very fixed amount of wealth that would
go to wages, and that the CEO's salary is coming from what would have otherwise gone to workers.
No. **You** assume that. By saying that the CEO makes too much, you
are implying that he is taking from someone who "deserves" it more.
What I proved was that eliminating the CEO salary would not impact the price of a car. So there is no claim that the CEO salary is making
the public pay more for a car.
What I proved was the eliminating the CEO salary would not impact the
the wages of a worker.
Therefore, what a CEO makes is irrelevant.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60549037.25176.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <6053DEBD.49758.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Thu Mar 18 2021 11:03 pm
Fiat currencies are not scarce. An infinite number of dollars can be created by the Federal Reserve, as most are digitised rather than printed into existence. US dollars are as scarce as Zimbabwean dollars, which turned out not to be particularly scare when President Mugabe had the misconception he was in the possession of a money tree planeted in his back yard.
Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that, but they don't, and arne't going to do it tomorrow.
Trust.
I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics.
The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dollars. There is NO
limit to the number of US dollars that can be created. There is a limit
to ALL physical assets, rendering them scarce to some degree or another whereas there is an unlimited supply of an intangible, unbacked fiat currency.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dr. What <=-
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Dr. What wrote to Arelor <=-
I've never heard Capitalism described as a "scarcity economy" other
than when a scarcity occurs, Capitalism tends to eliminate it.
On the contrary, a false scarcity narrative helps keep prices high for
the producers. Where a false sense of scarcity fails, controlling the supply to keep prices high works equally well.
Exchanging goods and services in bitcoin seems fine and dandy,
but I always felt that the exchange point is pretty much the
weakest link in the chain (figuratively speaking). Imagine, you
have a few hundred $ worth of bitcoin that you want to cash in.
You have to "give" it to the exchange who then promises to
deposit the cash value in your bank or pay method of your
choice. The waiting game would be nerve-racking. And we've
seen exchanges get hacked and lose all their coins.
I really don't see how it is "surprisingly close".
I don't support the "labour theory of value", I was specifically critical of it, and actually argued that we still use it to
some degree now and should dump it.
I don't support intellectuals planning the economy. I never did.
I don't support the dictatorship of the proletariat, or ending private property. In fact, I'm arguing for a STRONGER
application of property rights.
These basic features of Communism, I oppose, yet you say its "surprisingly close".
Well, I don't propose Marxism, and what "groups" are you talking about?
Yet wealth disparity is a major social problem, and a major economic one too. Therefore it MUST be relevant.
I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics. The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dolla
There is NO
limit to the number of US dollars that can be created. There is a limit to ALL physical assets, rendering them scarce to some degree or another whereas there is an unlimited supply of an
intangible, unbacked fiat currency.
But they DON'T create an infinite amount. That theoretically they could is irrelvant. They DON'T. They WON'T. The quanti
of US dollars is ALWAYS limited. The US dollar is, for all intents and purposes, limited in supply, and that is what matter
The entire system is predicated on them not doing that, and we all know they won't.
Are you seriously suggesting there is a possibility they will issue an infinite quantity?
Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
But I never argued that a workers wages should be taken from the
CEOs!!!
The argument is the wealth disparity, that the CEO's wages are rising
far faster than the employees.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics.
The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dollars. There is NO
limit to the number of US dollars that can be created.
But WHO is behind this big promotion? The prime-time TV
commercials can't be cheap. Will this be a failed project, a
planned disaster that will walk away with other people's coins?
I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics. The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dollars. There is NO limit to the number of US dollars that can be created. There is a limit to ALL physical assets, rendering them scarce to some degree or another whereas there is an unlimited supply of an intangible, unbacked fiat currency.
But they DON'T create an infinite amount. That theoretically they could is irrelvant. They DON'T. They WON'T. The quantity of US dollars is ALWAYS limited. The US dollar is, for all intents and purposes, limited in supply, and that is what matters. The entire system is predicated on them not doing that, and we all know they won't.
Are you seriously suggesting there is a possibility they will issue an infinite quantity?
I am skeptical about Bitcoin. I mean, cryptos are a great speculative asset class and there sure is a lot of money that can be made in that market. For instance, if I had invested in Bitcoin in March 2020, I would have made a 400% return on my investment which would have been pretty sweet. My problem is that this can be compared to Tulip Mania, and I don't want to be the one
...if it becoems popular, you won't need to sell your
Bitcoin for dollar so often.
You would come to my store and buy vitamines with Bitcoin.
Then I would spend those bitcoins by paying my providers
directly with them.
Right now we are following a model according to which
Bitcoin is a fancy way of transfering and storing dollar or
euro, which frankly, does not work for me.
if i still had my bitcoin wallet from when it all started out, i could buy and sell you fuckers! -+-
my suppliers with cash. Now, my bank is back open to the walk-
in public. I had amassed a handful of cheques that had no other
way to get deposited if I stayed home. :( And.. I've no doubt
stretched the patience of several of my creditors during that
time.
Hello MRO!
** On Saturday 20.03.21 - 17:45, MRO wrote to Andeddu:
if i still had my bitcoin wallet from when it all started out, i could buy and sell you fuckers! -+-
Aww.. what's the story on that wallet?
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Arelor on
Sat Mar 20 2021 11:36 am
Well, I don't propose Marxism, and what "groups" are you talking about?
Good you are not proposing Marxism.
The main group I am thinking about is the originary Phalanx in Spain.
That would be early 20th Century. The History of Phalanx is a bit
complex and some people argue that it departed its ideological roots to become a classical military dictatorship, but I disgress.
Then there was Spanish National Alliance, the Spanish Patriotic Knot,
and a couple of small political parties that claim to follow Rivera's ways. These are more modern and a lot of them still exist in a way or another. I think National Alliance was declared a terrorist
organitation because they were found hoarding explosives though.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-too.
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Dr. What on
Sat Mar 20 2021 12:07 pm
Yet wealth disparity is a major social problem, and a major economic one
Therefore it MUST be relevant.
Wealth disparity is not a problem unl¡ess a sizeable percentage of the people at the bottom is really screwed, in my opinion.
Durign the 2008/9 crisis we had a lot of people crying against wealth disparity. Usually it was people who was making less money than they
used to, but they still had more than one car in the family and had subscriptions to a lot of entertaining services, gymn, and many of the wonders of the modern world. Many of this people had legit complaints,
but a good bunch of them stinked envy. "This guy has a bigger car than
I do, so let's screw him" etc.
Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
But I never argued that a workers wages should be taken from the
CEOs!!!
The argument is the wealth disparity, that the CEO's wages are rising
far faster than the employees.
You just contradicted yourself.
The basis for any "wealth disparity" argument is that those who make
more "take" from those who make less.
And that is nothing more than a strawman for jealousy. Those who **think** that they are better are jealous
of those who actually are.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Sat Mar 20 2021 12:11 pm
I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics. The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dollars. There is NO limit to the number of US dollars that can be created. There is a limit to ALL physical assets, rendering them scarce to some degree or another whereas there is an unlimited supply of an intangible, unbacked fiat currency.
But they DON'T create an infinite amount. That theoretically they could is irrelvant. They DON'T. They WON'T. The quantity of US dollars is ALWAYS limited. The US dollar is, for all intents and purposes, limited in supply, and that is what matters. The entire system is predicated on them not doing that, and we all know they won't.
Are you seriously suggesting there is a possibility they will issue an infinite quantity?
Federal Reserve President Neel Kashkari was interviewed in 2020 on 60 Mnutes by CBS News during the midst of the pandemic.
Interviewer: Can you characterise everything that the Fed has done this past week as essentially flooding the system with money?
Kashkari: Yes, exactly.
Interviewer: And there's no end to your ability do to that?
Kashkari: There's no end to our ability to do that.
The Federal Reserve has admitted serval times that they were ready and willing to provide unlimited liquidity in the form of money printing.
There is no fixed limit on fiat currencies, they are not scarce. If you can't grasp that simple concept, you have not studied economics. There
is NO FIXED limit on an unbacked currency. There is a limited amount of resources on this planet which is why we talk about scarcity, but there
is NO LIMIT on a currency that is not backed by a physical asset. There
is no HARD upper limit, which is why it is NOT scarce. The Zimbabewan central bank churned-out trillions of dollars and placed them into circulation, which became quadrillions, which became septillions before the entire economy collapsed and the currency became unusable.
There is no theoretical limit to the number of fiat currency units that can be created and governments can print, and print, and print until hyperinflation takes hold. This is a fundamental aspect of economics
and I am surprised that you are even attempting to dispute it.
Do you process bitcoin at your shop, or is it only with your
online presence?
Lefties have no concept of economics.
In theory you are correct. In reality you are utterly wrong.
Money has value only in that it can purchase something. Creating more money does not mean people
get more. It means that the money is worth less. It's called "inflation".
There is a limit to how many dollars can be created because at a certain point, the dollar becomes
worthless.
if i still had my bitcoin wallet from when it all started out, i could buy and sell you fuckers!
Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-
realm. My modest stash in Paypal operates like that. People pay
into my PP account, and I use the funds in there to pay for
things I would need.
Right now we are following a model according to which
Bitcoin is a fancy way of transfering and storing dollar or
euro, which frankly, does not work for me.
my suppliers with cash. Now, my bank is back open to the walk-
in public. I had amassed a handful of cheques that had no other
way to get deposited if I stayed home. :( And.. I've no doubt
stretched the patience of several of my creditors during that
time.
If it wasn't for the cheques, I was thinking of avoiding the
bank for a while longer - to make a point. The only other
problem was how to "convert" the cash so that it is accessible
for paying bills. I was prepared to GIVE people my accumulated
cash for an eTransfer exchange. I think eTransfer is pretty
cool. By sending an eTransfer to one of my email addresses, the
money gets deposited into my bank account automatically (no
passphrases required.) Once confirmed, I would simply hand over
the equivalent in cash.
Lots of fun.
--- OpenXP 5.0.49
* Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
Do you process bitcoin at your shop, or is it only with your
online presence?
Yes, I do.
Even the clinit I work for accepts bitcoin. There is a QR
code with a payment address so you can deliver payments to
it from your mobile if need be. Not that it ever gets used,
because or customers are insurance companies rather than
patients, and insurance companies don't pay from their
mobile phone.
If you had 100 dollars worth of Bitcoin back in 2009 and sold it today, you'd have around 50 million dollars. Mind boggling.
I see a lot of horror stories of people losing their Bitcoin wallets and hard disc drives with old Bitcoin that's now worth stupid money.
Does that clinit just use the online bitcoin button at your site
to when paying you? Doesn't the online button go through an
exchange server?
So.. how does that work? Do you just have a printed QR code in
the store that people can "scan"?
If you had 100 dollars worth of Bitcoin back in 2009 and
sold it today, you'd have around 50 million dollars. Mind
boggling.
I see a lot of horror stories of people losing their Bitcoin
wallets and hard disc drives with old Bitcoin that's now
worth stupid money.
..I had amassed a handful of cheques that had no other
way to get deposited if I stayed home. :(
cant you take a photo of a check and have it deposit? that's
been around a long time.
regarding bitcoin, for me getting it and spending it has
been a pain in the ass. someone got my cc number from
coinbase and bought a bunch of bullshit. first time my cc
number got stolen.
I am skeptical about Bitcoin. I mean, cryptos are a great
speculative asset class and there sure is a lot of money
that can be made in that market. For instance, if I had
invested in Bitcoin in March 2020, I would have made a 400%
return on my investment which would have been pretty sweet.
My problem is that this can be compared to Tulip Mania, and
I don't want to be the one left 'hodling' worthless digital
crap if the market crashes. It's not a store of value and
it's not digital gold. There are going to be winners and
losers and those that fail to realise their gains prior to a
major economic event are going to lose everything.
Yes.. the bank has an app for that purpose. I don't think my
phone would support it. The phone simply stopped working with
Googleplay following some kind of GoogelPlay or Playstore update
- which I now regret allowing. I've installed Telegram with the
direct .APK file. But I can't find the .APK file for my bank's
That's not too good at all. Nowadays most credit cards can be
suspended or disabled while you don't expect anyone to use them.
In the case of the store, I can generate a QR code from a
spare smartphone and then customers can scan it with theirs.
The clinic just has a poster with the QR address printed on
it. The receptionist has a read-only wallet from which to
confirm the payment is valid, in the workstation.
I loved PayPal, for a time. I'd put some money into it, buy
a film camera. Clean it up, shoot a couple of rolls, sell
it for a profit, put the profit back into PayPal. Buy
another one, repeat. I parlayed $25 into $400 that way and
got to play with some cool cameras in the process.
Right now we are following a model according to which
Bitcoin is a fancy way of transfering and storing dollar or
euro, which frankly, does not work for me.
The use of Bitcoin as a transfer medium is interesting - overseas money transfers are expensive and take a long time.
I bank with USAA, they don't have any physical branches. I
can deposit checks using a phone app, they'll mail
cashier's checks, and I sold a car using a bank wire that
took 15 minutes to process from another USAA customer.
Aww.. what's the story on that wallet?
i didnt save it and i didnt think bitcoin would blow up like
it did.
Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
By: Ogg to Arelor on Sun Mar 21 2021 09:40 am
Does that clinit just use the online bitcoin button at your site
to when paying you? Doesn't the online button go through an
exchange server?
you send your bitcoin to that person's bitcoin address. there's no charges until you try to switch it back to your countries currency.
OH.. so you operate with TWO wallets? I can see the importance
of a clerk who takes payments on you behalf should be restricted
to read-only. I didn't know that the same wallet can configured
with multiple users.
Lefties have no economic sense at all. They think that if a company
charges $2 for a cup of coffee, the company gets all that money.
They don't understand that after paying for everything that it takes
to make that cup of money, they company is lucky to get $0.02 out of
that $2.
"Leftie" here. I own/run a business. I, and my fellow "Lefties"
are quite-fucking-aware of how such things work.
On the other hand, it seems to appear you still think "Trickle down
economics" work, although there's no evidence to support that.
The idea that Reagan communicated in the 80s was that the rich business owners will ensure the livelihoods of their workers, aka "Trickle Down Economics". This never worked but became the Conservative Mantra moving forward. The reality is, the rich business owners are only concerned
about getting richer and the workers are expendible for lower-wage, potentially off-shore, workers.
As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest paid worker is
now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is unacceptable.
I think we are talking past each other.
I accept fully that there is no fixed upper limit on the amount that can be issued.
I am saying that TODAY there is. Tomorrow, there will be.
Remember, the argument was about the value of currency. Currency maintains value because we can use it to buy things, and because you can't just pluck it out of thin air.
For pretty much everyone that is true. If currency is NOT scarce, then why the hell am I bothering to go to work to try to earn it? Why are not all loans just granted automatically?
https://www.barstoolbets.com/blogs/3238063/do-you-think-this-guy-regrets-tur ning-down-50000-btc-for-a-dollar13-million-home-purchase-now-worth-dollar1.6 5-billion
or google man who refused house payment with bitcoin
he turned it down and could have been a billionaire now
But do you think you could trust an exchange to convert and
deliver that 50 million in cash? :/ You would have to give
your coins to the exchange, and then WAIT for the cash delivery.
They could claim something went wrong and never deliver.
About a month ago, I subscribed to a stock investment
newsletter. It delivers BUY NOW suggestions, and other
interesting info every day. The idea is to follow the
recommendations (virtually) and see where I would be based on
the imaginary $s allocated for that.
Perhaps I should share the info here and see what y'all think.
Thought it was rather fickle how stock can plummet based on a
rumour or bad press.
Steve Gibson (of grc.com, Spinrite and Twit podcast) and Max
Keiser (of RT's Keiser Report) said the same thing when bitcoin
first started out. I think they have new wallets by now.
Which reminds me:
"A new currency for global trade (E1668)
In this episode of the Keiser Report, Max and Stacy look at the
Citibank report suggesting that bitcoin will be the new currency
for global trade within the next seven years. In the second
half, Max interviews Chris Fenton, author of 'Feeding the
Dragon,' about why the United States is falling so far behind
China in high tech, and whether or not a financialized economy, characterized by stock buybacks and loading companies with debt
instead of R&D, is one that can ever compete against an economy
like China's, in which investment in innovation is growing.
Mar 9, 2021 06:39
https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/517521-new-currency-
global-trade/
Again, for the most part, corporations don't pay taxes, their customers
do.
I was watching a documentary about coffee recently. One quote stood out: This cup of coffee cost me $2. The grower receives $0.02.
This implied that the coffee shop owner got the other $1.98 - which is,
of course, false.
But that's what people like Dream Master believe. They are completely ignorant of economics and if they were in charge, would run a company
like a 5 year old runs a Cool Aid stand.
Technology, medicine, science, better agricultural techniques
lifted people out of poverty.
And those kinds of things don't typically advance nearly as well
or quickly in Socialist societies vs Capitalist. In terms of
agriculture in particular, socialism is often regressive even.
Hence massive starvation that tends to sweep socialist nations.
I really wish people could get out of this "Communism vs
Capitalism" mindset. It really retards progress, meaningful
analysis and is misleading. There is no point engaging in
discussion of economics if someone thinks that it is an either-or proposition. It is like discussing drinks with someone who thinks
its a choice between beer and coke.
Communism is relatively new, historically speaking. Capitalism is
older, but still modern. What do you think people were doing
beforehand?
And Capitalism is different to Free Markets again. People
produced advancements and great art and great things and science pre-Capitalism.
And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there
isn't> a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class
disparity.
You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER
argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising the current
ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead
to it.
Your either confused as hell, or just arguing against something that
lives in your imagination. I can't make head not tails of your fanciful thought proceses.
This is how Capitalism works. It indoctrinates people into being the lap-dogs for Capital and those who control it. It's not just an economic system, it is a set of values, it relies on people accepting Capitalist MORALITY. These arguments are not about economics. It's defending a morality, a morality that serves the 1%.
Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an
infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that,
but they don't, and aren't going to do it tomorrow.
Trust.
And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there
isn't a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class
disparity.
You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER
argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising the current
ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead
to it.
You are not arguing for Communism, but you are arguing for an economic
model that is surprisingly close (ie. a non-Marxism inspired flavor of Socialism, similar to the one advocated by classic Fascist groups).
As for CEO's, wealth inequality is a major, major social problem,
and directly affects me. It affects my nation.
So..... just like Dream Master, you are quite sure it's a huge
problem, and yet.... you can't just say in straight language what
the problem actually *IS*. LOL. Talk about "talking points".
You're both hypocrites and CNN talking-head regurgitators.
There's so much Bitcoin regret out there, I am kinda glad I
didn't invest because I know I would have probably cashed
out at around 20 dollars per coin.
Tracker1 wrote to Dr. What <=-
That's why I actually prefer VAT/Transaction tax models over income tax models.
Ideologically speaking, imho, I feel
that if a person can own a piece of property, never leave said property and able to subsist on what one grows/uses on that property, they
should never be at risk of losing that property just because they lived another year.
The other issue is that income tax models by necessity have so many loopholes over the years.
Trying to tax the "income" of companies is an exercise in futility.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
You decry tribalist dogma, then proceed to spew tribalist dogma.
Tracker1 wrote to Arelor <=-
Thank you... in my mind, Communism, Fascism and most forms of dramatic collectivism are all different sides of coins minted in the same
Socialist dogma to me. You can call it "Democratic Socialist" but
still pushing for collectivist government controls that will only
suppress all rather than let most rise in the name of some twisted view
of "fair". --
Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was
"created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually
a problem.
--
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
The Man Voted "Most Trusted Expert in Crypto" Reveals His Next
Top Pick for FREE
Wednesday, March 31st, at 8 p.m. ET
Former Wall Street VP and hedge fund manager Teeka Tiwari
picked bitcoin in 2016, when it traded for just $428.
Early readers who listened to Teeka's advice had the
opportunity to multiply their money over 120X as bitcoin
soared to $50,000 and above (becoming the first cryptocurrency
to pass the trillion-dollar mark in market cap).
As a result.
A panel of 130,000 analysts nominated Teeka Tiwari as the
"Most Trusted Expert in Crypto."
And on Wednesday, March 31st, at 8 p.m. ET, Teeka will give
you the name of his next top pick. for FREE!
It's a coin he believes will be the next cryptocurrency to
break the trillion-dollar market cap barrier.
So.. the "pick" could be a fine one to enter into on the low-end
and come out on top just a few months later.
Dr. What wrote to Tracker1 <=-
Thank you... in my mind, Communism, Fascism and most forms of dramatic collectivism are all different sides of coins minted in the same
Socialist dogma to me. You can call it "Democratic Socialist" but
still pushing for collectivist government controls that will only
suppress all rather than let most rise in the name of some twisted view
of "fair".
You bring up an interesting difference between Leftie Elites and
Reality.
The concept of "fairness".
Take this situation:
Allen and Bob work for the same company doing the same job.
Allen comes in and leaves on time, takes the normal breaks and
puts in a good 8 hour work day.
Bob comes in late, sneaks out early, hides in the restroom and
puts in a fair 4 hour day.
At the end of a year, Allen gets bump in pay, while Bob does not.
To the vast majority of people, that's fair. Allen gave more, so
Allen gets more.
But to the Leftie Elite, that's not fair because, in their
twisted version of reality, Allen and Bob are "equal".
The Man Voted "Most Trusted Expert in Crypto" Reveals His Next
Top Pick for FREE
Wednesday, March 31st, at 8 p.m. ET
So.. the "pick" could be a fine one to enter into on the low-end
and come out on top just a few months later.
My guess is that he'll be talking about the Dogecoin. Elon
Musk has been banging on about it for a while now and there
is a lot of speculation that it'll spike in value. It is
currently trading at 0.06 dollars so gambling 20-30bucks on
it wouldn't be a bad thing.
Gamgee wrote to Dr. What <=-
A great (and realistic) example of the distorted universe that Lefties live in. There are Lefties in this very message area that firmly
believe that the CEO of a huge firm should have the same income as a homeless heroin addict living in a tent under a bridge, and shitting on the curb while he tosses a used syringe into the street.
Just...... impossible for a normal person to comprehend that kind of stupidity. Oh well, they make me laugh, so they have some small value.
My guess is that he'll be talking about the Dogecoin. Elon
Musk has been banging on about it for a while now and there
is a lot of speculation that it'll spike in value. It is
currently trading at 0.06 dollars so gambling 20-30bucks on
it wouldn't be a bad thing.
Yes.. my guess would be the same one that Musk was talking
about. But then there is Ethereum too - it's not just a coin,
it's also for assets. Lately, something called non-fungible
tokens has made the news.
If I don't remember after Mar 31, remind me and I'll report back
what "The Man.." revealed. I have access to the myriad of
investment advice and news from that newsletter, but I don't
read everything. I don't have the resources to buy most
established stocks anyway. But a small expense even up to $50 I
might risk if there is an opportunity to compound that initial
amount many times over in a few months.
..I don't have the resources to buy most
established stocks anyway. But a small expense even up to $50 I
might risk if there is an opportunity to compound that initial
amount many times over in a few months.
XRP also appears to be getting some traction too. Ethereum is fairly established so I can't see it going up in large multiples in the same way as Bitcoin... I could be very wrong on that though...
Non-fungible tokens (NFTs) are a complete scam in my
opinion. They're the digital equivalent of sticker books and
they'll never be used as any form of currency as they aren't
fungible. A good example of an NFT is Jack Dorsey's first
tweet which was sold for almost 3 million dollars.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Sun Mar 21 2021 09:11 pm
I think we are talking past each other.
I accept fully that there is no fixed upper limit on the amount that can be issued.
I am saying that TODAY there is. Tomorrow, there will be.
Remember, the argument was about the value of currency. Currency maintains value because we can use it to buy things, and because you can't just pluck it out of thin air.
For pretty much everyone that is true. If currency is NOT scarce, then why the hell am I bothering to go to work to try to earn it? Why are not all loans just granted automatically?
We are definitely talking past each other because I am discussing the literal economic definition of scarcity in relation to commodities. I
was NOT talking about artificial scarcity, which is what you are describing.
All fiat currencies are destined to collapse sooner or later as they
have no interinsic value. Hyperinfaltion and the subsequent monetary collapse, i.e. when the currency can no longer be exchanged for goods
and services, is the deciding factor in relation to the final tally of currency units in the financial system.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <605892C9.17091.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6053DEB9.49755.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/18/2021 4:34 AM, Boraxman wrote:
Technology, medicine, science, better agricultural techniques
lifted people out of poverty.
And those kinds of things don't typically advance nearly as well
or quickly in Socialist societies vs Capitalist. In terms of
agriculture in particular, socialism is often regressive even.
Hence massive starvation that tends to sweep socialist nations.
I really wish people could get out of this "Communism vs
Capitalism" mindset. It really retards progress, meaningful
analysis and is misleading. There is no point engaging in
discussion of economics if someone thinks that it is an either-or proposition. It is like discussing drinks with someone who thinks
its a choice between beer and coke.
When there are people literally rioting and pushing for Marxist-style policies, it kind of becomes the argument and a lot of nuance is lost.
I'm also a pragmatic libertarian and will generally lean towards
whatever brings less bureaucracy and has a chance of actually becoming law/policy.
Communism is relatively new, historically speaking. Capitalism is
older, but still modern. What do you think people were doing
beforehand?
And Capitalism is different to Free Markets again. People
produced advancements and great art and great things and science pre-Capitalism.
Capitalism is in its' es sense trade... From a political perspective,
it's more about allowing trade to happen with as few restrictions as reasonable. It's existed for as long as man has wanted something
someone else had and was willing to use something other than force to acquire it.
Communism is about collectivist control. It sounds good in concept, but the reality of how greed and motivation work will usually overcome any idealistic agenda.
It's more complex in practice but often comes down the to differences
in how the exclusive right (of governments) to use of force is handled. Some favor stronger controls as collectivists. Others will favor individual liberty and freedom. Most are somewhere in the middle. Politics is the negotiation of terms towards one's agenda and goals.
I think that liberty and common law can go a very long way with a
fairly limited central government. As to corporations, I feel they are granted conditional immunity and limited liability by government and should be limited as such. That isn't the same as collectivist control
or ownership so much as boundaries for interactions.
For the record, I used to be a Communist. Having met several expats
from China and Russia in my life, I no longer could hold many of those views. Having worked in/around enough government in my career has
tended to shape my mindset much more in favor of as limited a
government as pragmatically possible.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <605893A2.17092.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6053DEBB.49756.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/18/2021 4:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:
And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there
isn't> a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class
disparity.
You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER
argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising the current
ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead
to it.
Your either confused as hell, or just arguing against something that
lives in your imagination. I can't make head not tails of your fanciful thought proceses.
There are right now, Democrats holding public office and workers within the party that are pushing for Marxist policies. There are riots and "antonymous zones" controlled by those who which to have a Marxist/Communist society in this country. Your own statements have echoed similar sentiment and I'm sorry if this isn't you, but if it
quacks like a duck, my first assumption is going to be it's a duck.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <605894A7.17094.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6053DEBD.49758.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/18/2021 5:03 AM, Boraxman wrote:
Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an
infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that,
but they don't, and aren't going to do it tomorrow.
Trust.
Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually
a problem.
XRP also appears to be getting some traction too. Ethereum
is fairly established so I can't see it going up in large
multiples in the same way as Bitcoin... I could be very
wrong on that though. I'd personally go with the <1 dollar
cryptos and take a complete punt in the event they one day
become a major currency. I'm a little bit curious as to what
the guy's pick is at the end of the month.
Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-
Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually
a problem.
What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?
I am for smaller government, but I think the companies/big business
can easily step in for government and the church, and ARE doing so.
The blindspot in Libertarian ideology is that it considers the
government a problem, but doesn't consider other institutions which
could limit freedom the same way a problem, because they are not, by definition, government.
There are right now, Democrats holding public office and workers
within the party that are pushing for Marxist policies. There are
riots and "antonymous zones" controlled by those who which to have
a Marxist/Communist society in this country. Your own statements
have echoed similar sentiment and I'm sorry if this isn't you, but
if it quacks like a duck, my first assumption is going to be it's
a duck.
Can you point to some specifics?
I think this is a case of "it has feathers, it must be a duck".
Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an
infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that,
but they don't, and aren't going to do it tomorrow.
Trust.
Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was
"created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's
actually a problem.
What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <605DE870.46977.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
@REPLY: <605D2261.49994.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-
Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually
a problem.
What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?
Give money to the people to spend, who'll prop up the economy from the bottom up, be able to eat, pay their landlords, and generally survive?
Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-
Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually a problem.
What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?
Give money to the people to spend, who'll prop up the economy from the bottom up, be able to eat, pay their landlords, and generally survive?
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <605E1868.17195.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <605D225D.49992.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/25/2021 5:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:
I am for smaller government, but I think the companies/big business
can easily step in for government and the church, and ARE doing so.
The blindspot in Libertarian ideology is that it considers the
government a problem, but doesn't consider other institutions which
could limit freedom the same way a problem, because they are not, by definition, government.
Corporate power is granted by government, not limited by it...
Government grants liability protections to companies. If they didn't
do that, then common-law could handle most issues with corporate abuse
of power.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <605E18FE.17196.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <605D225F.49993.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/25/2021 5:40 AM, Boraxman wrote:
There are right now, Democrats holding public office and workers
within the party that are pushing for Marxist policies. There are
riots and "antonymous zones" controlled by those who which to have
a Marxist/Communist society in this country. Your own statements
have echoed similar sentiment and I'm sorry if this isn't you, but
if it quacks like a duck, my first assumption is going to be it's
a duck.
Can you point to some specifics?
I think this is a case of "it has feathers, it must be a duck".
I am pretty sure if you actually had a good faith position to become informed, you'd be able to use a search engine yourself. As far as I'm concerned, I am not in favor of collectivist/socialist policies. I
could be convinced of an argument for specific social programs, but
that is far from the same argument.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <605E1971.17197.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <605D2261.49994.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/25/2021 5:47 AM, Boraxman wrote:
Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an
infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that,
but they don't, and aren't going to do it tomorrow.
Trust.
Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was
"created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's
actually a problem.
What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?
Your assertion that they don't keep printing near infinite supply is wrong/flawed, so instead of accepting you were mistaken, you change the subject. I didn't say that there shouldn't have been measures taken, you're arguing a point I didn't make. Typical leftist progressive.
XRP also appears to be getting some traction too. Ethereum is fairly established so I can't see it going up in large multiples in the same way as Bitcoin... I could be very wrong on that though...
Interested in taking this topic to an emptier echo? I could
could post snippets from the newsletter I get. Discuss. Hope.
Dream. I would suggest CHAT or COFFEE_KLATSCH. Then, if the
investment topic becomes bullish (pun intended) a dedicated echo
to talk about it could work well.
I heard about the "investment/purchase" of the tweet. Sounds
ludicrous. Maybe that is another symptom of covid. :/
I've never heard of the term fungible before. The end result
sounds almost like a sophisticated barter. But the digital
aspect of it seems volatile or ephemeral - one EMP and *poof*,
gone.
We are definitely talking past each other because I am discussing the literal economic definition of scarcity in relation to commodities. I was NOT talking about artificial scarcity, which is what you are describing.
All fiat currencies are destined to collapse sooner or later as they have no interinsic value. Hyperinfaltion and the subsequent monetary collapse, i.e. when the currency can no longer be exchanged for goods and services, is the deciding factor in relation to the final tally of currency units in the financial system.
I've heard this argument for 25 years, and I knows its been around longer. Lots of people still waiting for the collapse.
Maybe someone else here can have better luck. The same
announcement is mentioned at many places:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/crypto-next-trillion-dollar-coin- 191300418.html
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/crypto-next-trillion-dollar-coin-
191300418.html
Or google for "Teeka Tiwari bitcoin"
Every link to the ultimate destination sort of locks up and the
swirwly dots thing just stops. Maybe the event had/has a
limited booking. :(
What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?
Give money to the people to spend, who'll prop up the economy from the bottom up, be able to eat, pay their landlords, and generally survive?
I am pretty sure if you actually had a good faith position to become informed, you'd be able to use a search engine yourself. As far as I'm concerned, I am not in favor of collectivist/socialist policies. I could be convinced of an argument for specific social programs, but that is far from the same argument.
You didn't answer the question. What specifically did I say, which endorsed Communism, or some form of collectivism?
The value of the US dollar, if supply is infinite, should be zero.
It isn't.
Why is the value of the dollar not zero then?
Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-
Not disputing that. I was referring more to culture and values.
Companies can effectively "ban" speech, even if the government itself doesn't.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <605FC65A.25436.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <605D225B.49991.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
Thu Mar 25 2021 11:25 pm
We are definitely talking past each other because I am discussing the literal economic definition of scarcity in relation to commodities. I was NOT talking about artificial scarcity, which is what you are describing.
All fiat currencies are destined to collapse sooner or later as they have no interinsic value. Hyperinfaltion and the subsequent monetary collapse, i.e. when the currency can no longer be exchanged for goods and services, is the deciding factor in relation to the final tally of currency units in the financial system.
I've heard this argument for 25 years, and I knows its been around longer. Lots of people still waiting for the collapse.
Then engage your brain. Inflation occurs the moment a goverment
introduces new currency units into the financial system and the
economy. You may not see it as it takes time for the newly created
dollars to filter through the economy, but given enough time, it'll increase consumer prices.
I don't know if you're aware, but inflation HAS occurred within the
stock market. Assets have increased way beyond what would normally be percieved as "fair value" within a startlingly short period of time.
For instance, in 2018, Apple achieved a market value of 1 Tr dollars.
In late 2020, without seeminly doing anything, the company hit a market value of 2.1 Tr dollars. This was caused by all the newly created
stimulus dollars in the system chasing the same number of assets thus increasing the price. That's why we are seeing all time highs in the
stock market despite the REAL economy performing at an all time low.
Tendency is for it to be zero. See inflation.
It is not zero right now because supply in circulation is not zero right now. Then there are also issues like the so called "speed of money", according to which inflation does not apply evenly to the whole economy. Essential industries get hits first and harder by inflation, markets that are less dynamic (such as luxury)just tail the trend.
I mean, it is not like fiat currencies haven't crashed in the past and we are theorizing over thigns that could be possible, but have not been demonstrated.
Your assertion that they don't keep printing near infinite supply is wrong/flawed, so instead of accepting you were mistaken, you change the subject. I didn't say that there shouldn't have been measures taken, you're arguing a point I didn't make. Typical leftist progressive.
The value of the US dollar, if supply is infinite, should be zero.
It isn't.
Why is the value of the dollar not zero then?
Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was
"created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's
actually a problem.
What should have been done to prop up the economy during the
pandemic?
Give money to the people to spend, who'll prop up the economy from the bottom up, be able to eat, pay their landlords, and generally survive?
Lupine Furmen wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Exactly. Business should not have gotten a single dime of the stimulus money. Every last penny should have gone to the citizens. Then it let
the citizens decide what businesses live or die with their spending.
Every link to the ultimate destination sort of locks up and the
swirwly dots thing just stops. Maybe the event had/has a
limited booking. :(
That's too bad. I see that Teeka Tiwari has been interviewed on London
Real and it took place only 6 days ago. It's up on YouTube so I'll
probably give it a watch in the next couple of days to see what the guy is all about. Brian Rose is an ex-trader himself and a great interviewer so I am sure it'll be worth a watch.
Interested in taking this topic to an emptier echo? I could
could post snippets from the newsletter I get. Discuss. Hope.
Dream. I would suggest CHAT or COFFEE_KLATSCH. Then, if the
investment topic becomes bullish (pun intended) a dedicated echo
to talk about it could work well.
Yeah, I am happy to talk about investments and different types of
financial instruments, etc... We can work something out. Does Net Mail work? Would that be suitable?
NFTs are ludicrous. I don't see how you could auction off
something that is a component part of a much larger online account/presence...
'Fungibility' is genrally an asset's ability to be broken
down into identical parts. For instance, 50 cents is half of
a dollar and is worth 50 cents regardless of which 50 cent
coin it is and who is carrying it.
Barter doesn't work in a sophisticated trade economy because
you can't break down commodities into smaller identical
component parts. A horse may be worth 200 loafs of bread,
however if you only need one loaf of bread and a horse is
all you have then you're onto plums. That is why a currency
has to be fungible.
The reason that there is no finite limit to the amount of currency that can be issued, is because there may not be a finite limit to which the economy can grow. Perhaps physically there is, but we don't where where that is. Where would you set the limit?
Now, if you want to argue that the money supply is growing faster than it should, that is a different discussion (and one where you won't find me disagreeing). But making the amount of money that could potentially be issued FINITE doesn't fix that, unless you want to create a shortage, by setting the limit below that which is warranted.
My point is, the mere fact it is theoretically infinite is not the problem. It is the practical issuance of money which is the problem.
My point is, the mere fact it is theoretically infinite is not the problem. It is the practical issuance of money which is the problem.
Lupine Furmen wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Exactly. Business should not have gotten a single dime of the stimulus money. Every last penny should have gone to the citizens. Then it let the citizens decide what businesses live or die with their spending.
Unfortunately, Leftie Tyrants (like "Governor" Whit-less here in Michigan) decided what business should live or die. You can't spend money at a business
that the gov't does not "allow" to open.
Trying to tax the "income" of companies is an exercise in futility.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <606061CD.22172.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
@REPLY: <605F0EAA.50013.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on
Sat Mar 27 2021 09:49 pm
I am pretty sure if you actually had a good faith position to become informed, you'd be able to use a search engine yourself. As far as I'm concerned, I am not in favor of collectivist/socialist policies. I could be convinced of an argument for specific social programs, but that is far from the same argument.
You didn't answer the question. What specifically did I say, which endorsed Communism, or some form of collectivism?
Economic systems in which the think of production is carried out by enterprises that are collectively owned by workers are collectivist.
They are prominently featured by Fascist and anarcho-syndicalist
programs.
Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60608B42.51639.dove-general@dmine.net>
@REPLY: <605F0EA8.50012.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-
Not disputing that. I was referring more to culture and values.
Companies can effectively "ban" speech, even if the government itself doesn't.
The idea that companies can effectively ban speech is not 100% correct.
There are laws dealing with political ads, for example. A TV station can't air only one side. They have to provide the same access to all sides.
Then there's Section 230 - which protects platforms (i.e. the company
is not responsible for the content of its users). The reason for that
is that the company claims that it cannot police the content.
But if the company censors content, then 1) it's not a platform, but a publisher
and 2) it proved that it **can** police its content. Therefore it
should have no Section 230 protection and can be sued for the content
of its users.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <6060B0F4.25451.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <605F0EAC.50014.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on
Sat Mar 27 2021 09:53 pm
Your assertion that they don't keep printing near infinite supply is wrong/flawed, so instead of accepting you were mistaken, you change the subject. I didn't say that there shouldn't have been measures taken, you're arguing a point I didn't make. Typical leftist progressive.
The value of the US dollar, if supply is infinite, should be zero.
It isn't.
Why is the value of the dollar not zero then?
We have already discussed this, Boraxman, and you went quiet after the distinction between the theoretical limit and the real world limit in relation to quantitative easing was made by both myself and Dr What. We have already discussed and clarified the reasons as to why fiat
currencies have percieved values and can be exchanged for goods and services.
I don't want to pick on you because a number of people on this board
are guilty of the same crime, but it appears that VERY FEW of us are intellectually honest enough to change position whenever we are
confronted by a greater argument. This renders much of the discussion pointless due to the covering and re-treading of the same ground again
and again, well after the facts have been established and explained thoroughly.
Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <60620F83.25466.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
@REPLY: <60620A83.25465.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Andeddu to Boraxman on
Mon Mar 29 2021 06:12 pm
My point is, the mere fact it is theoretically infinite is not the problem. It is the practical issuance of money which is the problem.
Fiat currencys ARE a problem due to the human condition. The idea that
any of us would not collect cash from an infinite money tree in our backyard is ridiculous, just as it is ridiculous to expect politicians
to have the integrity and restraint not to print currency to pay for funding gaps or pet projects. You would only be right if we were
governed by an AI administrator who was progammed NOT to create more currency units unless certain conditions, such as a higher GDP, were
met.
Economic systems in which the think of production is carried out by enterprises that are collectively owned by workers are collectivist. They are prominently featured by Fascist and anarcho-syndicalist programs.
Don't shareholders collectively own a company? Is Capitalism then collectiv too?
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
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@REPLY: <6067149E.50085.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Arelor on
Fri Apr 02 2021 11:23 pm
Economic systems in which the think of production is carried out by enterprises that are collectively owned by workers are collectivist. They are prominently featured by Fascist and anarcho-syndicalist programs.
Don't shareholders collectively own a company? Is Capitalism then collectiv too?
Shareholders don't own the company by virtue of working on it.
Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
But they can choose who they do business with. They can choose not to provide services. They can collude to do this. We've already
witnessed this.
If Mastercard, SalesForce, Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AWS decide that it
is not in their business interest to support you (for underlying
political motives), they can cut you off.
Of course, they aren't being 100% honest about this. It's not like
when they colluded to destroy Parler they were being transparent, which makes it hard to prove that there is an underlying motive apart from
the publically stated one.
Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-
Don't shareholders collectively own a company? Is Capitalism then collectiv too?
Shareholders don't own the company by virtue of working on it.
Kickstarter is great example of how this works. Many people kick in (relatively)
small amounts of money into a project. If the project succeeds, they get what the project promised. If the project fails, they get nothing. (It's amazing how many Kickstart people fail to understand this.)
Boraxman wrote to Andeddu <=-
You would do what then? Return to the gold standard?
Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-
Crowdfunding is a weird beast.
What pisses me off is that the marketing engine has turned it into a pre-order system.
Man we humans are stupid as bricks.
But he's written many times that human's are really bad at determining risk.
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/11/perceived_risk_2.html
+ People exaggerate spectacular but rare risks and downplay common risks.
+ People have trouble estimating risks for anything not exactly like their
Dr. What wrote to Arelor <=-
What pisses me off is that the marketing engine has turned it into a pre-order system.
And that is the real problem with crowdfunding. They aren't setting
the expectations correctly.
Exactly. Business should not have gotten a single dime of the
stimulus money. Every last penny should have gone to the citizens.
Then it let the citizens decide what businesses live or die with
their spending.
Unfortunately, Leftie Tyrants (like "Governor" Whit-less here in Michigan) decided what business should live or die. You can't spend money at a business that the gov't does not "allow" to open.
Dr. What wrote to Arelor <=-
What pisses me off is that the marketing engine has turned it into a pre-order system.
And that is the real problem with crowdfunding. They aren't setting the expectations correctly.
What bothers me is seeing established, profitable companies using crowdfunding to pay for products under the guise of "let the people vote for what they want with their dollars".
In my opinion, crowdfunding was meant to let individuals and small companies leverage sources of money when they don't have funds available through the usual means.
... Abandon desire
Corporate power is granted by government, not limited by it...
Government grants liability protections to companies. If they
didn't do that, then common-law could handle most issues with
corporate abuse of power.
Not disputing that. I was referring more to culture and values.
Companies can effectively "ban" speech, even if the government
itself doesn't.
Then there's Section 230 - which protects platforms (i.e. the company
is not responsible for the content of its users). The reason for
that is that the company claims that it cannot police the content.
But if the company censors content, then 1) it's not a platform, but
a publisher and 2) it proved that it **can** police its content.
Therefore it should have no Section 230 protection and can be sued
for the content of its users.
I don't want to pick on you because a number of people on this board
are guilty of the same crime, but it appears that VERY FEW of us are intellectually honest enough to change position whenever we are
confronted by a greater argument. This renders much of the discussion pointless due to the covering and re-treading of the same ground again
and again, well after the facts have been established and explained thoroughly.
Exactly. Business should not have gotten a single dime of the stimulus money. Every last penny should have gone to the citizens. Then it let
the citizens decide what businesses live or die with their spending.
And THERE is blatant proof of the corruption in Government. THESE are the people that need to be removed from power at all costs! They need to be reminded that they WORK FOR US! NOT the corporations or lobbiests!!!!I'm with ya! Arghhh! What next. We will follow you all the way!
It is time for a revolution!! Every day we see more and more examples of how this government is a FAILED experiment and MUST BE REPLACED!!!
-+-
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dr. What <=-
What bothers me is seeing established, profitable companies using crowdfunding to pay for products under the guise of "let the people
vote for what they want with their dollars".
In my opinion, crowdfunding was meant to let individuals and small companies leverage sources of money when they don't have funds
available through the usual means.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
@MSGID: <606BA6DB.17351.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
@REPLY: <605F0EA8.50012.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
On 3/27/2021 3:48 AM, Boraxman wrote:
Corporate power is granted by government, not limited by it...
Government grants liability protections to companies. If they
didn't do that, then common-law could handle most issues with
corporate abuse of power.
Not disputing that. I was referring more to culture and values.
Companies can effectively "ban" speech, even if the government
itself doesn't.
The following concept only needs to be expanded to include virtual
public squares of size.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privately_owned_public_space
When social media sites include congressional representatives, senators and presidents, they should have strict limitations on who/how it can block people from access.
Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-
But they can choose who they do business with. They can choose not to provide services. They can collude to do this. We've already
witnessed this.
You really need to read up on that because your ignorance is showing.
If a business refuses to do business because you are a "protected"
class, then the answer is that they can't do that and they are in violation of federal anti-descrimination laws.
In California, they have more protected classes and that includes political affiliations.
If Mastercard, SalesForce, Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AWS decide that it
is not in their business interest to support you (for underlying
political motives), they can cut you off.
Actually, if you live in California, they can't.
Of course, they aren't being 100% honest about this. It's not like
when they colluded to destroy Parler they were being transparent, which makes it hard to prove that there is an underlying motive apart from
the publically stated one.
First time is a coincidence. Second time is just bad luck. Third time there's something up.
What bothers me is seeing established, profitable companies using crowdfunding to pay for products under the guise of "let the people vote for what they want with their dollars".
In my opinion, crowdfunding was meant to let individuals and small companies leverage sources of money when they don't have funds available through the usual means.
Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-
The following concept only needs to be expanded to include virtual
public squares of size.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privately_owned_public_space
When social media sites include congressional representatives, senators and presidents, they should have strict limitations on who/how it can block people from access.
Knightbbs wrote to Boraxman <=-
Article 230 is a dangerous law. If the platforms are NOT responsible
for the content on their platform you can get 2 things: 1: Whoever
wants to can buy political adds to influence an election with disinformation without the platform being responsible and 2: The
platform can ban/censor anyone they please.
Knightbbs wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: GAB
By: Boraxman to Dr. What on
Fri Apr 02 2021 11:29 pm
Article 230 is a dangerous law. If the platforms are NOT responsible
for the content on their platform you can get 2 things: 1: Whoever
wants to can buy political adds to influence an election with disinformation without the platform being responsible and 2: The
platform can ban/censor anyone they please. This puts a LOT of power in the hands of the platforms WITHOUT liability. In classic media the same rules do not apply: If you publish something as a paper you are held responsible for what you print AND if you decide to censor somebody another news outlet can continue to let them speak. This is not the
case with the big platforms (Twitter, Facebook). The fact they are not responsible for the content combined with their size, commercial goals
and totally untransparent algorhythems make them a serious threat to democracy and free speech.
When you start manipulating the order and the presence of content, that's when I think 230 protections should stop. At that point you're a publisher exerting editorial control over your content.
Also, crowdfunding is being used in hobby niches for
bypassing traditional points of sale and I still don' know
how I feel about it.
For example, it used to be the case that roleplayers in
small communities would use a local game store or club as a
place for meeting, gamming and purchasing supplies for the
hobby.One of the things crowdfunding does is to launch pre-
order campaigns for items that the local game store would
have sold otherwise. Since most small stores are struggling
already, this is bad news for them.
Nikadimus wrote to Arelor <=-
Kids today dont realize the outcome of socialism.
It is rather ironic that a generation (millenials and gen z'ers) so attuned to being different and serving the individual even to a point
of attempting to change gender. I wish I could get them to understand
that a socialist or near socialist regime is not going to offer
transgener surgery, they dont have time for gay marriage, they wont
need to care about your feelings, and will not let your personal
feelings and needs get in their way. No matter who become the dictator.
Crowdfunding is a weird beast.
It was born as a low risk way of funding projects. The stakes for
backers are low because most crowdfunding platformsm will return the
money to them if the funding goals are not achieved.
What pisses me off is that the marketing engine has turned it into a pre-order system.
Hello MRO!
** On Wednesday 24.02.21 - 21:14, MRO wrote to Ogg:
what is the fidonet channel?
fidonet.online? i see a bunch of russian stuff
Those are public groups. Some of those may or may not include
some that are being linked to the sysop's bbs.
But the official english-speaking ones are private. You have to
be invited. That is done to avoid spammers. It is not unlike
registering at a BBS except that one click will get it all done.
The invite links are published in some back messages at
FIDONET.TELEGRAM or FUTURE4FIDO echos.
I'll provide a short-list here for convenience at the end of
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