On 08 Jul 21 00:44:44, Thecivvie said the following to All:

Because you can be guaranteed you will still be doing it 3 hours later

Windows 10?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (618:500/24)

Hello, Nick!

Replying to a message of Nick Andre to Thecivvie:

Windows 10?

So Windows 10 decided to sh*t itself today. My personal box decided that during an update, the video driver would get corrupted. After putzing with it for nearly an hour, I gave up, let it run ... and suddenly a blue window came up about something in the driver corrupted the system and it reverted the update. The box rebooted and acted like there was no problem.

Once I get Social Security, I am so getting a better computer and slapping Linux back on it. So tired of this bull from Windows.

From what I'm hearing, Windows 11 is going to be even worse with more worthless features, more "cloud integration", et cetera.

I think M$ should have stopped at XP.

Later,
Sean

--- FleetStreet 1.27.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS Local Console * bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (618:618/10)

On 07 Jul 21 23:10:40, Sean Dennis said the following to Nick Andre:

Once I get Social Security, I am so getting a better computer and slapping Linux back on it. So tired of this bull from Windows.

I share the same sentiments, believe me - unfortunately Windows is what powers everything here. The BBS and mail Hub is on an XP virtual machine amd cannot / will not ever be upgraded.

Now that Billy is getting his clocked cleaned in the divorce, I really hope he returns to M$ to fix all this shit. Say what you will but when Billy and Ballmer were at the helm, things were "meh, okay" with M$.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (618:500/24)

Hello Nick,

Thursday July 08 2021 03:41, you wrote to me:

I share the same sentiments, believe me - unfortunately Windows is
what powers everything here. The BBS and mail Hub is on an XP virtual machine amd cannot / will not ever be upgraded.

I did an experiment this last week and discovered that ArcaOS runs just fine on my HPE ProLiant ML110 Gen6 server save for the odd and poorly supported Matrox G200 onboard graphics chip. I need to go to my parents' place and dig through my computer stuff to see if I have a video card that ArcaOS likes and will run at 1920x1080@60hz (my monitor's native resolution). I used to have a few in my storage room but I lost all of that last October.

Then I can spread the BBS over four hard drives, giving me about 3.5TB of breathing room for the BBS.

Now that Billy is getting his clocked cleaned in the divorce, I
really
hope he returns to M$ to fix all this shit. Say what you will but when Billy and Ballmer were at the helm, things were "meh, okay" with M$.

He's gonna have to go back to work to afford alimony.

-- Sean

... Without fools there would be no wisdom.
--- GoldED/2 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS // bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (618:618/10)

On 08 Jul 21 08:54:14, Sean Dennis said the following to Nick Andre:

I did an experiment this last week and discovered that ArcaOS runs just fin on my HPE ProLiant ML110 Gen6 server save for the odd and poorly supported Matrox G200 onboard graphics chip. I need to go to my parents' place and d through my computer stuff to see if I have a video card that ArcaOS likes a will run at 1920x1080@60hz (my monitor's native resolution). I used to hav few in my storage room but I lost all of that last October.

Matrox was always "iffy", even on Windows if I remember correctly.

Used to have boxes and boxes of cards, ended up tossing a lot of it to the curb when I moved to this apartment.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (618:500/24)

Sean,

From what I'm hearing, Windows 11 is going to be even worse with more worthless features, more "cloud integration", et cetera.

And, apparently 64-bit only as well.

I think M$ should have stopped at XP.

Agreed, although I did like Windows 7.

I have a graphic on the BBS that shows various domiciles in line with versions of Windows. It ranged from a quaint cottage for Windows 95 to
a real fancy house for Windows 8. For Vista, the house was upside down
in the photo. <G>

Daryl

... Windows Vista7Up Virus: Renders 16-bit programs useless.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: The Thunderbolt BBS - Little Rock, Arkansas (618:250/33)

Sean Dennis wrote to Nick Andre <=-

From what I'm hearing, Windows 11 is going to be even worse with more worthless features, more "cloud integration", et cetera.

I think M$ should have stopped at XP.

You should be grateful Windows has been such a pain. If it were easy and stable, we'd all be selling shoes!




... Where are we now?
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (618:300/1)

Nick Andre wrote to Sean Dennis <=-

I share the same sentiments, believe me - unfortunately Windows is what powers everything here. The BBS and mail Hub is on an XP virtual
machine amd cannot / will not ever be upgraded.

I've run my BBS on TinyXP for many years, it's XP with most everything stripped out. Now that apps are starting to lose support for XP, it helps reinforce keeping the BBS box for just BBSing.

It's got the added benefit of being tiny - it idled in 128 mb of RAM.


... Where are we now?
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (618:300/1)

Hello Daryl,

Thursday July 08 2021 08:23, you wrote to me:

And, apparently 64-bit only as well.

That's made a lot of people mad though in our case, with NTVDMx64, that might be a workaround.

I have a graphic on the BBS that shows various domiciles in line
with versions of Windows. It ranged from a quaint cottage for Windows
95 to a real fancy house for Windows 8. For Vista, the house was
upside down in the photo. <G>

Now it'd be a picture of a Dumpster fire.

-- Sean

... Monday is a hard way to spend one-seventh of your life.
--- GoldED/2 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS // bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (618:618/10)

Hello Kurt,

Thursday July 08 2021 08:53, you wrote to me:

You should be grateful Windows has been such a pain. If it were easy
and stable, we'd all be selling shoes!

You're exactly right. If it wasn't for Windows, we might have had a productive career.

As was told to me many decades ago: Microsoft Windows (n.): a 32-bit extension for a 16-bit GUI on top of a 8-bit OS by a 2-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

-- Sean

... OS/2: opens windows, shuts gates.
--- GoldED/2 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS // bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (618:618/10)

From what I'm hearing, Windows 11 is going to be even worse with more worthless features, more "cloud integration", et cetera.

I have Windows 11 running as a VM just for kicks. So far the only thing I notice is the menu looks like Apple. Not a fan of Microsoft constantly screwing with things that work and are fine - just to charge money for a new OS.

Windows 2008 Server and Windows 7 had the best funcitonal menu. Now you have to click far more times to do the same thing. Just trying to edit the NIC is a pain in the ass using the menu system.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

Now that Billy is getting his clocked cleaned in the divorce, I really
hope he returns to M$ to fix all this shit. Say what you will but when Billy and Ballmer were at the helm, things were "meh, okay" with M$.

Every since Bill left, Microsoft has been cloning Apple in every way. First with the failed "Windows phone" and app store which was a total flop, and now with the OS look, menu system, and everything. For some reason they feel that copying Apple is the way to go vs. being innovative.

The OS is becoming less and less important with the average user that runs almost everything from a browser. Most regular people could get by with a cheap Chromebook.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

He's gonna have to go back to work to afford alimony.

Or he could join his buddy Bezos up in space. Both have enough money to buy another wife if they want.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

On 09 Jul 21 08:52:08, Mark Hofmann said the following to Sean Dennis:

Windows 2008 Server and Windows 7 had the best funcitonal menu. Now you ha to click far more times to do the same thing. Just trying to edit the NIC a pain in the ass using the menu system.

What I found greatly fascinating (and frustrating) was that in Server 2012 onward the RDP session manager was moved into Server Manager instead of remaining as that nice little quick-n-dirty way to shadow a session.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (618:500/24)

On 09 Jul 21 08:54:48, Mark Hofmann said the following to Nick Andre:

Every since Bill left, Microsoft has been cloning Apple in every way. Firs with the failed "Windows phone" and app store which was a total flop, and n with the OS look, menu system, and everything. For some reason they feel t copying Apple is the way to go vs. being innovative.

They've copied and ripped off stuff over the many years but mostly were "subtle" about it. When Billy and Ballmer were at the helm, the big thing was at least the OS had some level of quality to it... even Vista got relatively quick patches and service packs to fix how broken it was.

With Windows 10 and Server 2016 onward, everything is just a mishmash of things that look like it hasn't been tested all the way through, and updates are *constant* it seems. They keep saying Windows is a service but its not, its an OS. Updates once or twice a year would be okay, not every month or every week or whatever.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (618:500/24)

Sean,

That's made a lot of people mad though in our case, with NTVDMx64, that might be a workaround.

I saw a deal from Best Buy today, where apparently Windows 11 will be
64-bit ONLY. But, I understand Windows 10 will be supported into sometime
in 2025. I just hate to lose all the legacy doors.

I have a graphic on the BBS that shows various domiciles in line
with versions of Windows. It ranged from a quaint cottage for Windows
95 to a real fancy house for Windows 8. For Vista, the house was
upside down in the photo. <G>

Now it'd be a picture of a Dumpster fire.

There was a video on Fox News' website, of a guy having "a flaming
wallet" at a baseball game. Needless to say, it turned some heads!!
I've heard of burning through money, but that's ridiculous.

Daryl

... ERROR: ORG.ASM not found. Fondle any key to retry.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: The Thunderbolt BBS - Little Rock, Arkansas (618:250/33)

Sean,

As was told to me many decades ago: Microsoft Windows (n.): a 32-bit extension for a 16-bit GUI on top of a 8-bit OS by a 2-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

That's about the size of it.

Daryl

... Windows 64-bit Virus: Renders all 16-bit programs useless.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: The Thunderbolt BBS - Little Rock, Arkansas (618:250/33)

Nick Andre wrote to Thecivvie <=-

On 08 Jul 21 00:44:44, Thecivvie said the following to All:

Because you can be guaranteed you will still be doing it 3 hours later

Windows 10?

No, Ubuntu Server to 20lts. Took me hours longer than I expected

TC

... tcob1: telnet binkp tcob1.duckdns.org

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: TCOB1 at tcob1.duckdns.org BinkP / Telnet (618:500/14)

Mark Hofmann wrote to Sean Dennis <=-

Windows 2008 Server and Windows 7 had the best funcitonal menu. Now
you have to click far more times to do the same thing. Just trying to edit the NIC is a pain in the ass using the menu system.

While Microsoft OSes have improved their looks over the years, it's when you get down into the admin portions that it becomes a hodgepodge. I saw a
Youtube video showing UI bits in Windows 10 that dated back to 8.1,8,
7,Vista, XP and even 2000.

I do like Windows 10, and my favorite retro UI to play with is Windows95. I suppose it's everything in between that falls by the wayside.


... Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (618:300/1)

Now that Billy is getting his clocked cleaned in the divorce, I really hop returns to M$ to fix all this shit. Say what you will but when Billy and Ballmer were at the helm, things were "meh, okay" with M$.

I would always blame Bill kinda like thanks Obama

Knowing more things now, windows was likely only crashing to hell due to crappy drivers and unfinished software cramming up the reg .. regis...
ugh... REGISTERRRRY. Gross

But I get it rush the product out we can fix/patch it later there is a pricepoint and a number of units that must sell for returns on investment for those damn share holders.

--- Renegade v1.18a
* Origin: ≡ Physics ≡ bulletinboard.systems ≡ 16BIT! ≡ (618:300/10)

On 13 Jul 21 00:12:58, Lux said the following to Nick Andre:

Knowing more things now, windows was likely only crashing to hell due to crappy drivers and unfinished software cramming up the reg .. regis... ugh... REGISTERRRRY. Gross

Agreed. The Windows kernal is actually very good; its just everything else piled ontop thats crap. The registry and DLL management are a constant disaster.

I had the same problem with OS/2 in the end before I switched to Windows 2000, it was problems with drivers, drivers, drivers.

But I get it rush the product out we can fix/patch it later there is a pricepoint and a number of units that must sell for returns on investment fo those damn share holders.

I'm not sure I agree here because Microsoft hasn't made that much money with Windows as they used to these days. People use computers much differently now... no more buying and installing software; people just go online and
use whatever social or cloud services. Most people can pick up a cheap Chromebook and be happy with it. Microsoft knows this and isn't stupid.

The real moneymaker for them is Office 365 and Server/Enterprise products which have mostly been good. They pretty much wrote off the phone business.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (618:500/24)

Nick Andre wrote to Lux <=-

I'm not sure I agree here because Microsoft hasn't made that much money with Windows as they used to these days. People use computers much differently now... no more buying and installing software; people just

The VM that runs the BBS is still running windows 10 un activated. Been that way for over a year. Why? When I installed it and activated it on my VM it was fine, but when I moved it to Brad's house he converted it to QEMU and
M$ won't reactivate.

go online and use whatever social or cloud services. Most people can
pick up a cheap Chromebook and be happy with it. Microsoft knows this
and isn't stupid.

This is a cheap chromebook. Granted I hacked some linux on there so I could use Magiterm, Multimail and VNC.

The real moneymaker for them is Office 365 and Server/Enterprise
products which have mostly been good. They pretty much wrote off the
phone business.

Andrea used to be a big office 365 user, but most of her classes were done
in google, so she switched to that.

Shawn

... Bowlers do it with bigger balls, and a finger in each hole!

--- Talisman v0.24-dev (Windows/x86)
* Origin: Tiny's BBS II = tinysbbs.com:4323/ssh:4322 (618:500/33)

What I found greatly fascinating (and frustrating) was that in Server
2012 onward the RDP session manager was moved into Server Manager instead of remaining as that nice little quick-n-dirty way to shadow a session.

These days, upgrades in Microsoft terms just means changing where the icons are located, making 3D icons, changing the graphics, moving the menu around and call it a day - then charge more money for the "upgrade".

Very little actual "real upgrades" that provide additional functionality or capabilities. They just need to keep releasing things to keep money flowing in.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

They've copied and ripped off stuff over the many years but mostly were "subtle" about it. When Billy and Ballmer were at the helm, the big thing was at least the OS had some level of quality to it... even Vista got relatively quick patches and service packs to fix how broken it was.

I remember Microsoft ripping off Stacker back in the day with Double Space. When they hired all the top coders from Stacker and basically stole the technology from Stacker, then got sued. Microsoft still won - the lawsuit was just part of doing business.

With Windows 10 and Server 2016 onward, everything is just a mishmash of things that look like it hasn't been tested all the way through, and updates are *constant* it seems. They keep saying Windows is a service
but its not, its an OS. Updates once or twice a year would be okay, not every month or every week or whatever.

Cisco does the same thing these days. I think all the testers and QA people have been terminated to save money. The customer and public is the QA and tester these days. Cisco releases things that are so not ready for prime time, it is like a joke. Companies feel like having something available vs nothing is better, but when your stuff doesn't work and riddled with issues no one trusts it anymore.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

The real moneymaker for them is Office 365 and Server/Enterprise products which have mostly been good. They pretty much wrote off the phone
business.

Very true. Microsoft makes the vast majority of their money from their cloud services, which would include O365. Not to mention these are recurring revenue platforms which is even better for them. Their desktop OS is lower on the priority list at this point. I'm sure they are working on ways to pull that into the cloud and will want people to run Windows 12 via RDP in the cloud or Hyper-V. Boot to cloud.. That would be the end of that OS.

Yeah, Microsoft tried many times to enter the phone business and failed. I think they are done with it at this point.

I will say I am surprised just how much market share they ended up with in the cloud. I really thought Amazon and Google would dominate and MS would get some left overs. What kept them in play was Exchange and Active Directory and it moving to the cloud. That started their cloud migration and is the main glue that keeps them together in the cloud space.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

Mark Hofmann wrote to Nick Andre <=-

What I found greatly fascinating (and frustrating) was that in Server
2012 onward the RDP session manager was moved into Server Manager instead of remaining as that nice little quick-n-dirty way to shadow a session.

These days, upgrades in Microsoft terms just means changing where the icons are located, making 3D icons, changing the graphics, moving the
menu around and call it a day - then charge more money for the
"upgrade".

I've been a Linux admin for the past couple of years, but will need to build
a new AD forest and server infrastructure in the coming months. I'd better start playing with Server again - think the last version I worked on was Server 2008?


... Make a blank valuable by putting it in an exquisite frame
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (618:300/1)

Mark Hofmann wrote to Nick Andre <=-

Very true. Microsoft makes the vast majority of their money from their cloud services, which would include O365. Not to mention these are recurring revenue platforms which is even better for them. Their
desktop OS is lower on the priority list at this point. I'm sure they
are working on ways to pull that into the cloud and will want people to run Windows 12 via RDP in the cloud or Hyper-V. Boot to cloud.. That would be the end of that OS.

They just announced Windows 365. I could imagine they'd concoct another cut- down version of Windows OS that removes most everything except RDP and try
to re-invent Citrix and thin clients.

I will say I am surprised just how much market share they ended up with
in the cloud. I really thought Amazon and Google would dominate and MS would get some left overs. What kept them in play was Exchange and
Active Directory and it moving to the cloud. That started their cloud migration and is the main glue that keeps them together in the cloud space.

Azure is pretty good. I'm more of an AWS guy these days, but used Azure in
my last job, and liked it.


... Magnify the most difficult details
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (618:300/1)

I've been a Linux admin for the past couple of years, but will need to build a new AD forest and server infrastructure in the coming months. I'd better start playing with Server again - think the last version I worked
on was Server 2008?

These days I do more networking and security than anything else, but still do lots of server work for fun. The new Windows Server versions do add some extra features and abilities. Overall, AD is the same. Just more GPO options, etc.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

They just announced Windows 365. I could imagine they'd concoct another cut- down version of Windows OS that removes most everything except RDP
and try to re-invent Citrix and thin clients.

I didn't know that, but figured that was around the corner. They want to pull the user desktop to the cloud so they can charge subscriptions. Fortunately there are lots of other options out there - even for the average user. I don't see that taking off.

Azure is pretty good. I'm more of an AWS guy these days, but used Azure
in my last job, and liked it.

I have not really done much with any of the cloud providers. To me, running ESXi at home, I run my own cloud and have no need for it. I wouldn't mind learning more about VDI and cloning the various desktops and servers.

It is hard enough to keep up with all the networking and security technologies going on right now.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

Re: Re: Never do a system full update at nig
By: Mark Hofmann to Kurt Weiske on Sat Jul 17 2021 08:45 pm

I didn't know that, but figured that was around the corner. They want to pu the user desktop to the cloud so they can charge subscriptions. Fortunately there are lots of other options out there - even for the average user. I do see that taking off.

I personally think that sort of thing only flies with corporate customers. For a corporation it is easier to externalize the management of office programs and files and tell employees to keep all the sensitive material up there and save no local copies. That way, if some file is leaked, they can blame the employee for having a local copy of the file against corporate policy.

For home customers, it is just not going to work. Individuals are used to having every digital service for free. As my former favourite book store owner - no longer favourite because Abolins took his place - used to say, "people has gotten used not to pay [and this is why I cannot sell Manga anymore]"

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (618:250/24)

Mark Hofmann wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

I have not really done much with any of the cloud providers. To me, running ESXi at home, I run my own cloud and have no need for it. I wouldn't mind learning more about VDI and cloning the various desktops
and servers.

ESXi/vCenter at work and Proxmox at home here - My "to do/learn" list isn't going away any time soon. I didn't even think about ESXi at home as it's pretty picky about hardware and my home "lab" is an EOL Lenovo Thinkpad.

I'm going to be getting more into networking and security in the coming months, hopefully will be in a place to hire some people next year so I
don't have to do it all myself! Desktop Support, purchasing, licensing management, security, DevOps, production AWS, Linux and Windows systems
admin, LDAP and AD management and networking is more than enough for my
plate!


... The city devours the land, the people devour the city...
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (618:300/1)

ESXi/vCenter at work and Proxmox at home here - My "to do/learn" list
isn't going away any time soon. I didn't even think about ESXi at home as it's pretty picky about hardware and my home "lab" is an EOL Lenovo Thinkpad.

The main PC I use at home I have VMware Workstation on for my "testing" of various things. ESXi I use for all my 24x7 systems. At one time I had many desktops acting as servers (long ago) and ended up saving space, power, etc, by virtualizing all of them.

I'm going to be getting more into networking and security in the coming months, hopefully will be in a place to hire some people next year so I don't have to do it all myself! Desktop Support, purchasing, licensing management, security, DevOps, production AWS, Linux and Windows systems admin, LDAP and AD management and networking is more than enough for my plate!

I know the feeling. It is nice to have others to help with various projects and support. I still do the majority of all the high end stuff and likely always will until I retire one day. Not that I'm complaining, because I'm one of those people that thrives off challenges.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

Mark Hofmann wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

I know the feeling. It is nice to have others to help with various projects and support. I still do the majority of all the high end
stuff and likely always will until I retire one day. Not that I'm complaining, because I'm one of those people that thrives off
challenges.

Ditto, regarding challenges. I've managed teams for years up to this job, so getting a department to manage all of these areas of responsibility would be nice. :)

While still rolling up my sleeves, of course.


... Abandon desire
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (618:300/1)

Hi Kurt,

While still rolling up my sleeves, of course.

It is rare to see a manager at any level in IT get his hands dirty. That would be nice to have a manager that actually knows what he's talking about ... you're a rare breed.

-- Sean

--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Outpost BBS // bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (618:618/10)

It is rare to see a manager at any level in IT get his hands dirty. That would be nice to have a manager that actually knows what he's talking
about ... you're a rare breed.

I agree, there are very few like that these days. The few that are like that have moved up through the technical ranks and not just management from day one.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)