Spain has Paradise-Grade Socialized Healthcare. Meaning you may show up to an appointment for chemmo therapy only to be told to come next week because they have no supplies. Or, my favourite, you get diagnosed with lung cancer and th take four months to perform an extension study, and by the time they do it yo are told you have metas everywhere and you are gonna die in a year because yo took too long to treat it.

Compare that to holding an insurance card and getting a tumor extracted the same day it is discovered.

While it might not be that quick here in the states, from what I can tell
you are more likely to get something serious taken care of quickly (and
not be offered assisted suicide as an alternative) if you are here in the states vs. Canada or places in Europe.

The downside, of course, is that it won't be "free."

Mike
---
■ BgNet 1.0ß12 ≈ RAW: Port 27 / Telnet:26 / ftelnet:80
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Hello MIKE,

09 Jan 26 09:05, you wrote to ARELOR:

The downside, of course, is that it won't be "free."

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." -- Magaret Thatcher, 1976

-- Sean

... Murphy's Seventh Corollary: every solution breeds new problems.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20240209
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Johnson City, TN (618:618/1)

Or, my favourite, you get diagnosed with lung cancer and then take

>> four months to perform an extension study, and by the time they do
>> it you are told you have metas everywhere and you are gonna die in
>> a year because you took too long to treat it.
>> ..Compare that to holding an insurance card and getting a tumor
>> extracted the same day it is discovered.

While it might not be that quick here in the states, from what I can tell

>you are more likely to get something serious taken care of quickly (and
>not be offered assisted suicide as an alternative) if you are here in the
>states vs. Canada or places in Europe.

The downside, of course, is that it won't be "free."

No, major care is quicker in the USA than here in Canada but the cost
for decent insurance has always been very high for lower/medium income
people. I think Obama Care helped with that a bit but it appears to
still be fairly costly for those on a tight budget. I know it varies
greatly but it says online that the average premium is up around $750
a month, but it can be quite a bit lower for low income people and
up to $1000 for higher income people, and there are 4 levels for what
it will cover too to add to the confusion..

Few countries who try to have as close to free healthcare as possible
have come up with a system that works extremely well. Personally I
think Canada is at a happy medium, better coverage and care than
many others with very low cost to the individual.

That said, if you do a search for the best healthcare systems
in the world, Sweden comes in first then Canada was number two
followed by Finland, Denmark and Norway.. USA was 7th..

But depending on how the question is asked, the order varies
wildly, one site having a great many Asian countries in the
top 10 with the USA and Canada not showing up in there at all.

---
* SLMR Rob * Proofread carefully to see if you any words out
* Origin: Capitol City Online (618:250/1)

No, major care is quicker in the USA than here in Canada but the cost
for decent insurance has always been very high for lower/medium income people.

I would not say "always." IIRC, the cost took a big jump sometime between
1994 and 2000 and hasn't stopped since. Before that, it wasn't unheard of
for large employers to pay the premium 100% for an employee with no
dependents on the policy. During the time frame I gave, that became pretty rare (unless you maybe were in a union?).

But depending on how the question is asked, the order varies
wildly, one site having a great many Asian countries in the
top 10 with the USA and Canada not showing up in there at all.

I suspect it is not only how, but who asks. ;)

Mike

* SLMR 2.1a * Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased.
--- SBBSecho 3.28-Linux
* Origin: Capitol City Online (618:250/1)

Rob Mccart wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

That said, if you do a search for the best healthcare systems
in the world, Sweden comes in first then Canada was number two
followed by Finland, Denmark and Norway.. USA was 7th..

I asked Grok...

===
I asked: "Which country has the best non-socialized medical care in the
world?"

The best non-socialized medical care (meaning healthcare systems that are not primarily government-run/single-payer "socialized" models like the UK's NHS or Canada's fully public system, but instead rely heavily on private provision, insurance, competition, and individual responsibility) is most convincingly found in Singapore.

Singapore's system is widely regarded as one of the world's top performers overall -- often ranking in the global top 10 across various 2025-2026 indices for quality, efficiency, outcomes (e.g., life expectancy, low infant mortality), and cost control -- while being built on a fundamentally private-oriented framework with mandatory personal savings (MediSave), universal catastrophic insurance (MediShield Life), significant out-of-pocket payments/co-pays to discourage overuse, and heavy reliance on private
providers for much of primary and specialist care.

Why Singapore Stands Out for "Non-Socialized" Care

Private sector dominance in delivery: About 80% of primary/outpatient care happens in private GP clinics, and private hospitals compete directly with public ones. Public hospitals exist and are subsidized for citizens, but the system incentivizes efficiency and competition rather than full government control.

Market-like mechanisms: Patients pay substantial portions themselves (via savings accounts or cash), creating price sensitivity. Providers must compete on quality and cost to attract patients, avoiding the long waits or rationing often seen in more centralized systems.

Outcomes and efficiency: Singapore achieves world-class results (e.g., among the highest life expectancies and lowest costs as % of GDP for high-quality care) without the high taxation or bureaucracy of fully socialized models.

Global reputation: It's frequently praised as a model for blending private choice with strong regulatory oversight to keep costs down while maintaining elite standards -- something even critics of "socialized" care often
highlight positively.

Close Contenders

Several other systems lean heavily private or market-driven
while still achieving high-quality care:

- Switzerland -- Mandatory private insurance from competing insurers, with patients choosing providers freely. It delivers exceptional quality (top-tier hospitals, innovation, short waits), patient choice, and outcomes, but it's notably expensive (high premiums and costs).

- United States -- The most purely private/large-market system among developed nations, with cutting-edge technology, specialist care, and innovation (especially for complex procedures). Wealthy or well-insured patients often access the absolute best available anywhere. However, it ranks poorly overall in 2025 metrics due to high costs, unequal access, administrative
inefficiency, and worse population-level outcomes compared to peers.

Other mentions (e.g., parts of Germany or the Netherlands) involve regulated private insurance but with stronger universal/social elements.

Quick Comparison of Top "Non-Socialized" Options (2025-2026 Context)

- Singapore -- Best balance: elite quality + efficiency + affordability relative to outcomes.

- Switzerland -- Best pure quality/choice for those who can afford it.

- United States -- Best for innovation and specialized/top-tier care (if you have excellent coverage), but least efficient overall.

If you're seeking the highest-quality care without a heavily socialized/government-dominated model, Singapore is the strongest consensus choice today -- delivering results that rival or exceed many universal systems while keeping the private, competitive ethos at its core.
===

See next message...

-- Sean

... Which vegetable has the best kung fu? Broc-lee.
--- MultiMail/Linux
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Johnson City, TN (618:618/1)

Working people pay a 'premium' for coverage but it's pretty low,
starting at about $5 a month for those making $20,000 a year
and topping out at $75 a month for those making over $200,600.00.

As I said, not perfect but an ER visit for someone not covered
by that will pay easily $400+ for a simple in and out visit.

Does someone paying that "premium" also get premium coverage, i.e. the
$400+ ER visit doesn't cost them anything (beyond the premium)?

I think that is what you are saying but I wanted to be sure. That sounds
a lot like regular insurance.

Mike
---
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As I said, not perfect but an ER visit for someone not covered
by that will pay easily $400+ for a simple in and out visit.

When my stepdad was hit by a drunk driver in 2003, he ran up a $1,500,000 bil and his health insurance provided tried to come after him for the cost yet a month later, the entire amount was forgiven and we still don't know how that happened.

The conspiracy minded part of me assumes they were hoping to trick him
into paying at least part of it before finally taking care of it like they were supposed to.

Glad they did take care of it, though.

Mike
---
■ BgNet 1.0ß12 ≈ RAW: Port 27 / Telnet:26 / ftelnet:80
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MIKE POWELL wrote to SEAN DENNIS <=-

The conspiracy minded part of me assumes they were hoping to trick him into paying at least part of it before finally taking care of it like
they were supposed to.

BCBS loves to litigate.

Glad they did take care of it, though.

Much to everyone's surprise.

-- digi


... A Smith and Wesson beats four aces.
--- MultiMail/Linux
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Johnson City, TN (618:618/1)

No, major care is quicker in the USA than here in Canada but the cost

>> for decent insurance has always been very high for lower/medium income
>> people.

I would not say "always." IIRC, the cost took a big jump sometime between

>1994 and 2000 and hasn't stopped since. Before that, it wasn't unheard of
>for large employers to pay the premium 100% for an employee with no
>dependents on the policy. During the time frame I gave, that became pretty
>rare (unless you maybe were in a union?).

I just remember talking to someone when I was in Florida back around
1986 or 87 and he mentioned that he was paying over $400 a month
for insurance back then. You can almost triple that money to put it
into today's dollars..

That said, back then once I was out on my own, to keep my medical
coverage going I had to pay a premium as well, about $85 I think.
It's far lower than that these days if you have to pay it yourself.

That changed somewhat over the years. Currently if you aren't
working for some company or if you are making under $20,000
a year you pay nothing.

And as a senior, I've paid nothing for ages..

---
* SLMR Rob * ----'--,-(@ Would not a rose by any other name...
* Origin: Capitol City Online (618:250/1)

I asked: "Which country has the best non-socialized medical care in the

>world?"

Singapore's system is widely regarded as one of the world's top performers

>overall -- often ranking in the global top 10 across various 2025-2026 indice
>for quality, efficiency, outcomes (e.g., life expectancy, low infant
>mortality), and cost control

If you're seeking the highest-quality care without a heavily

>socialized/government-dominated model, Singapore is the strongest consensus
>choice today -- delivering results that rival or exceed many universal system
>while keeping the private, competitive ethos at its core.
>===

Interesting. It seems that in most places where healthcare is not
socialized that the hospitals and doctors must get together and
quietly set high prices rather than lowering prices to compete..

On a semi-related issue, if you don't qualify for the Gov't
health care in Canada and have to pay full price for treatment
the cost would often be 3 or 4 times as much in the USA as it
costs here - for more serious things like operations and broken
bones and such, not just a doctor's visit to get a prescription.

I just remember being in the hospital at one point and some
visiting Americans were coming out after having a broken bone
set for one of their kids. The receptionist appologized (must
be Canadian, eh?) that they'd have to pay for the visit..
She gave them the price and the kids mother laughed and said
it would have been 4 times that much back home..

---
* SLMR Rob * Just won the lottery... Now I can buy a life!
* Origin: Capitol City Online (618:250/1)

Working people pay a 'premium' for coverage but it's pretty low,

>> starting at about $5 a month for those making $20,000 a year
>> and topping out at $75 a month for those making over $200,600.00.
>>
>> As I said, not perfect but an ER visit for someone not covered
>> by that will pay easily $400+ for a simple in and out visit.

Does someone paying that "premium" also get premium coverage, i.e. the

>$400+ ER visit doesn't cost them anything (beyond the premium)?

I think that is what you are saying but I wanted to be sure. That sounds

>a lot like regular insurance.

Yes, it really is like regular insurance. Just quite a bit
lower than for profit healthcare systems charge for coverage.

No Canadian citizen ever pays anything for a visit to a doctor
or hospital beyond those numbers at the page top I mentioned
that we pay once a year with our income taxes.
Very low income, unemployed and seniors don't pay anything.

There are some (silly?) charges we may get hit with though.
I broke my shoulder a few years back and everything was covered,
all X-Rays, 3 return visits, pain killers, etc.. but I had to
pay about $25 for the sling for my arm..

---
* SLMR Rob * Don't ask ME... I only work here
* Origin: Capitol City Online (618:250/1)

I would not say "always." IIRC, the cost took a big jump sometime between

>1994 and 2000 and hasn't stopped since. Before that, it wasn't unheard of
>for large employers to pay the premium 100% for an employee with no
>dependents on the policy. During the time frame I gave, that became pretty
>rare (unless you maybe were in a union?).

I just remember talking to someone when I was in Florida back around
1986 or 87 and he mentioned that he was paying over $400 a month
for insurance back then. You can almost triple that money to put it
into today's dollars..

Yeah, that is a lot. My points of reference are from what it costs through
an employer. Persons paying for their own may have a different point of reference.

BTW, how does malpractice work in Canada? US citizens are often seen as "sue-happy," especially when it comes to health care providers. I suspect
that this gets factored into our costs.

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * Not even with BOTH hands AND a flashlight!
--- SBBSecho 3.28-Linux
* Origin: Capitol City Online (618:250/1)

Rob Mccart wrote to DIGIMAUS <=-

Interesting. It seems that in most places where healthcare is not socialized that the hospitals and doctors must get together and
quietly set high prices rather than lowering prices to compete..

That's certainly true here in the States. A good example is in my area,
there is a singular healthcare system called Ballad Health which is the
rsult of two local healthcare systems merging (the state law against such mergers was changed for this).

Ballad Health is notorious for its poor quality of healthcare, its
stinginess when it comes to providing high-quality supplies and equipment to its patients, its willingness to sue patients when they screwed up their billing process, and for firing all of its nurses who refused to take the
COVID "vaccine" (now they wonder why they can't hire nurses).

I was forced to stay at the local Ballad Health hospital during my first
heart attack. The doctors I dealt with were arrogant (God complex) and incompetent. At night, in the large heart ward I was in, there was but a single nurse with 30 patients.

It's not just socialized medicine that has issues...

Honestly, the VA (government) hospital has better nurses, offers better
care, and has -much- better food (honestly!) than the other hospital.

On a semi-related issue, if you don't qualify for the Gov't
health care in Canada and have to pay full price for treatment
the cost would often be 3 or 4 times as much in the USA as it
costs here - for more serious things like operations and broken
bones and such, not just a doctor's visit to get a prescription.

Doctors set their own prices and if you can, you shop around.

Now I also have Medicare (I'm forced to) because I am on SSDI. Thankfully, Social Security enrolled me in their "Extra Help" program due to the
severeness of my disabilities and that means the state of Tennessee pays my monthly $184 bill. If I had to pay that, I'd be even more destitute than I already am!

She gave them the price and the kids mother laughed and said
it would have been 4 times that much back home..

That also depends on where you live in the US.

-- Sean

... Can a frog jump higher than a house? Of course, a house can't jump.
--- MultiMail/Linux
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Johnson City, TN (618:618/1)

Hello Mike,

13 Jan 26 09:51, you wrote to ROB MCCART:

BTW, how does malpractice work in Canada? US citizens are often seen
as "sue-happy," especially when it comes to health care providers. I suspect that this gets factored into our costs.

I was sued by a provider over $15. It's not the patients.

-- Sean

... My other computer is an Atari 800.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20240209
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Johnson City, TN (618:618/1)

BTW, how does malpractice work in Canada? US citizens are often seen
as "sue-happy," especially when it comes to health care providers. I suspect that this gets factored into our costs.

I was sued by a provider over $15. It's not the patients.

Oh, yeah, I think it is everyone involved.

Mike
---
■ BgNet 1.0ß12 ≈ RAW: Port 27 / Telnet:26 / ftelnet:80
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Hello MIKE,

14 Jan 26 08:27, you wrote to me:

Oh, yeah, I think it is everyone involved.

Money for nothing and your checks for free.

-- Sean

... Wiler's Law: government expands to absorb revenue and then some.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20240209
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Johnson City, TN (618:618/1)

I just remember talking to someone when I was in Florida back around

>> 1986 or 87 and he mentioned that he was paying over $400 a month
>> for insurance back then. You can almost triple that money to put it
>> into today's dollars..

Yeah, that is a lot. My points of reference are from what it costs through

>an employer. Persons paying for their own may have a different point of
>reference.

BTW, how does malpractice work in Canada? US citizens are often seen as

>"sue-happy," especially when it comes to health care providers. I suspect
>that this gets factored into our costs.

Being run by the gov't doesn't exempt healthcare providers from being
sued, although possibly better proof is required here. We do seem to
hear about a lot of law suits down there that seem frivolous, more
put out there to get a quick settlement to keep it from going to
court rather than because the suit has real merit, but we would get
news somewhat filtered as well so we may only hear the crap ones..

Only the bad news makes the News.. B)

---
* SLMR Rob * Help, I'm modeming and I can't hangup!
* Origin: Capitol City Online (618:250/1)

Interesting. It seems that in most places where healthcare is not socialized that the hospitals and doctors must get together and
quietly set high prices rather than lowering prices to compete..

That's certainly true here in the States.

I was forced to stay at the local Ballad Health hospital during my first

>heart attack. The doctors I dealt with were arrogant (God complex) and
>incompetent. At night, in the large heart ward I was in, there was but a
>single nurse with 30 patients.

That's not good.. My few experiences here have shown the odd time
when the hospital was low on staff and waits were longer than ideal
but you could tell the people were woking their tails off to try
to do the best they could.

It's not just socialized medicine that has issues...

The thing that gets me, and maybe it's just on TV shows and not
the usual case, but you hear about hospitals in the USA charging
patients $15 for an aspirin or something and doctors walking past
your room sticking their head in and just saying, How you doing?,
and then carrying on.. and billing for a 'consultation'..

Honestly, the VA (government) hospital has better nurses, offers better

>care, and has -much- better food (honestly!) than the other hospital.

From a lot of comments on here it sounds like the VA is pretty good
although that's another thing we hear about where Vets can't get
access to the services or there are long waiting lists for things.

Now I also have Medicare (I'm forced to) because I am on SSDI. Thankfully,

>Social Security enrolled me in their "Extra Help" program due to the
>severeness of my disabilities and that means the state of Tennessee pays my
>monthly $184 bill. If I had to pay that, I'd be even more destitute than I
>already am!

That's great, a real help..

---
* SLMR Rob * Beauty is only a light switch away...
* Origin: Capitol City Online (618:250/1)

Rob Mccart wrote to SEAN DENNIS <=-

That's not good.. My few experiences here have shown the odd time
when the hospital was low on staff and waits were longer than ideal
but you could tell the people were woking their tails off to try
to do the best they could.

That night I mentioned, the male nurse showed me how to turn off my IV
infusion device if it ran out of fluid in the IV bag. I'd then roll out in my wheelchair and wait outside the room to let him know my IV was finished.

A year or so later, I was back there again when I had my second saddle pulmonary embolism. There were plenty of nurses on that ward but I tried to
be a low-maintenance patient. I was oddly released on a Sunday evening (I was doing well and they were short beds) but the night before, the nurses were going to Taco Bell and bought me dinner as I was not on any dietary resterictions at that time. I greatly appreciated that gesture.

The thing that gets me, and maybe it's just on TV shows and not
the usual case, but you hear about hospitals in the USA charging
patients $15 for an aspirin or something

That's real. The VA charges me co-pays from $8 to $24 on medications.
However, my primary care doctor will send eligible prescriptions to the Walgreens just down the road from me (20 minutes by scooter one way) and because they go through my Medicare, I pay nothing for them.

and doctors walking past
your room sticking their head in and just saying, How you doing?,
and then carrying on.. and billing for a 'consultation'..

That's real also. I am currently being billed by a radiology group for an x-ray at an external hospital's ER ... that I've never been to.

From a lot of comments on here it sounds like the VA is pretty good although that's another thing we hear about where Vets can't get
access to the services or there are long waiting lists for things.

The VA hospital at a local level is pretty good but dealing with the VA on a regional/national level is pure unadulterated hell.

That's great, a real help..

At the income level I am at, anything helps.

I am thinking that once I get a car, I might go back to work part-time at a
job I an physically handle.

-- Sean

... Why do they put Braille on drive-through bank machines?
--- MultiMail/Linux
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Johnson City, TN (618:618/1)

Being run by the gov't doesn't exempt healthcare providers from being
sued, although possibly better proof is required here. We do seem to

No doubt, but I wondered if maybe it was more difficult to do there vs.
here. Many of the ones you hear about here are for things that would be considered elective cosmetic surgery, which I am guessing isn't likely
covered by "free" in Canada. ;)

Mike
---
■ BgNet 1.0ß12 ≈ RAW: Port 27 / Telnet:26 / ftelnet:80
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From a lot of comments on here it sounds like the VA is pretty good
although that's another thing we hear about where Vets can't get
access to the services or there are long waiting lists for things.

We hear those stories also.

When I was in Canada in 2017, I ran into a Canadian who had voluntarily
served in the US Armed Forces. He was on his way to the states to take advantage of his VA health benefits, which he claimed were better than
what he would get in the Canadian system. That gave me a different
perspective on the VA.

Mike
---
■ BgNet 1.0ß12 ≈ RAW: Port 27 / Telnet:26 / ftelnet:80
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MIKE POWELL wrote to ROB MCCART <=-

When I was in Canada in 2017, I ran into a Canadian who had voluntarily served in the US Armed Forces. He was on his way to the states to take advantage of his VA health benefits, which he claimed were better than what he would get in the Canadian system. That gave me a different perspective on the VA.

In the States, we also have more resources to help us if the VA starts to play games with us too. The patient advocate office has helped me a lot at the VA.

-- Sean

... The trouble with experience is that it sometimes teaches you too late.
--- MultiMail/Linux
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Johnson City, TN (618:618/1)