• This needs to be everywhere

    From Chris Jacobs@1:103/705 to All on Thu Oct 10 09:03:05 2024
    https://x.com/DC_Draino/status/1844195742178586683
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  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Chris Jacobs on Thu Oct 10 11:19:46 2024
    https://x.com/DC_Draino/status/1844195742178586683

    Here's a 2019 fact check for you.

    https://tinyurl.com/mshye2fu

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  • From Mike Miller@1:154/30.1 to Chris Jacobs on Sat Oct 12 22:16:55 2024
    https://x.com/DC_Draino/status/1844195742178586683
    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    Do you do anything other than just post links to Xitter?

    Maybe engage your brain a bit, explain what you're thinking. Or have you become one of the mindless zombies that can only absorb short sentences and soundbites?


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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Mike Miller on Sun Oct 13 10:44:30 2024
    Mike Miller -> Chris Jacobs skrev 2024-10-13 05:16:
    Do you do anything other than just post links to Xitter?

    I checked the link, and it's such a prominent, crazy conspiracy theory that it's the subject of fact-checking (which is ongoing on X). The "RFK tells the true story" should be a big enough red flag.

    Maybe engage your brain a bit, explain what you're thinking. Or have you become one of the mindless zombies that can only absorb short sentences and soundbites?

    That sounds like a proper description of those who never got a Critical Thinking education. Neither by the first line of defence against demagogs, their parents, nor by the second line, the school. The third line usually will be lost by deliberate w/o.


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    ..

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to MIKE MILLER on Sun Oct 13 09:55:00 2024
    https://x.com/DC_Draino/status/1844195742178586683

    Do you do anything other than just post links to Xitter?

    Maybe engage your brain a bit, explain what you're thinking. Or have you becom
    one of the mindless zombies that can only absorb short sentences and soundbites?

    Having more context about what these links are about would be helpful. Here
    is what I found with a search using "Kamala prison California parents":

    https://www.factcheck.org/2019/05/kamala-harris-spins-facts-on-truancy-law/

    "Sen. Kamala Harris acknowledges that a 2010 state truancy law *she sponsored* resulted in some parents being jailed. But she misleadingly claims that jailing parents was an 'unintended consequence' of the law.

    "In fact, the law added Section 270.1 to the California Penal Code to allow prosecutors to fine and/or jail a parent 'who has failed to reasonably supervise and encourage the pupil's school attendance.' Under the law, which was signed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Sept. 30, 2010, a parent could face up to a year in jail and $2,000 fine. The law took effect in 2011.

    "Clearly, the state law intended for some parents to be jailed for their children's chronic truancy, despite Harris' claim that jailing parents was an 'unintended consequence' of the law. She may regret the law, but she can't redefine it."

    Whether or not the person RFK Jr. discusses was one of those "some parents"
    I am not sure.


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  • From Aaron Thomas@1:342/201 to Björn Felten on Sun Oct 13 13:42:30 2024
    Maybe engage your brain a bit, explain what you're thinking. Or have become one of the mindless zombies that can only absorb short sentenc and soundbites?

    That sounds like a proper description of those who never got a
    Critical Thinking education. Neither by the first line of defence
    against demagogs, their parents, nor by the second line, the school. The third line usually will be lost by deliberate w/o.

    It's not called "a Critical Thinking education," it's just called "critical thinking."

    Followers of the left are notorious for letting others think for them. News anchors, entertainers, corporations, organizations, department heads, they all get together and decide for you guys how to think. That's why we can't get you to disagree with anything the TV says.

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Aaron Thomas on Mon Oct 14 02:51:54 2024
    Aaron Thomas -> Björn Felten skrev 2024-10-13 21:42:
    It's not called "a Critical Thinking education," it's just called "critical thinking."

    Do you not understand how revealing that statement is? If you don't have it, you, of course, do not understand that it's something you must be taught. Ergo: Education. It's not something you get with your baby formula. DUH!

    Followers of the left are notorious for letting others think for them. News anchors, entertainers, corporations, organizations, department
    heads, they all get together and decide for you guys how to think.
    That's why we can't get you to disagree with anything the TV says.

    And here we go again, with the typical projection. What a surprise. NOT.

    --

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    ..

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  • From Randall Schad@1:226/44 to Aaron Thomas on Thu Oct 17 11:25:51 2024
    On 13 Oct 2024, Aaron Thomas said the following...

    Followers of the left are notorious for letting others think for them. News anchors, entertainers, corporations, organizations, department
    heads, they all get together and decide for you guys how to think.
    That's why we can't get you to disagree with anything the TV says.

    I know I'm sticking my head where it doesn't belong, but I'd like to pose a challenge to people on "both sides," as it were.

    Name 3 things where you hold a polar opposite view than the rank and file of your party. (And don't wimp out. Show me real issues.)

    I would start, but I'm a political party orphan.

    RS

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  • From Aaron Thomas@1:342/201 to Randall Schad on Thu Oct 17 15:15:58 2024
    Followers of the left are notorious for letting others think for them News anchors, entertainers, corporations, organizations, department heads, they all get together and decide for you guys how to think. That's why we can't get you to disagree with anything the TV says.

    I know I'm sticking my head where it doesn't belong, but I'd like to
    pose a challenge to people on "both sides," as it were.

    Name 3 things where you hold a polar opposite view than the rank and
    file of your party. (And don't wimp out. Show me real issues.)

    1) Ignoring the obvious - my party ignores the obvious bigtime. They ignore the fact that regional GOP chairs are colluding with Democrats.

    2) Ignoring the border - my party's elected representatives have elected to not make any attempts to solve the border crisis.

    3) Ignoring phone calls and emails. Both the RNC and the NY GOP have something in common: they don't answer my calls/emails, or anyone else's.

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to RANDALL SCHAD on Fri Oct 18 09:06:00 2024
    Name 3 things where you hold a polar opposite view than the rank and file of your party. (And don't wimp out. Show me real issues.)

    (1) I am pro-choice.
    (2) Not certain this one applies any more, but I seem to be less "excited" about getting involved with Israel than the party has been in the past.
    (3) One that is more pertinent as of late is that I don't believe the
    Office of the President having so much power is a good thing. I also
    believe the President is not "always right" even if it is someone I voted
    for.

    I came real close a few years ago to becoming a Libertarian but they seem
    to have shifted towards having no government, which I think would be a
    mistake.

    I do not believe it is the government's job to redistribute wealth or
    to become overly involved in the foreign affairs of another state, which
    means I am not likely to ever be a Democrat. When I was in college, many
    of my fellow students who self-identified as "Democrat" also
    self-identified as "socialist" or "communist." When I would ask them why
    they didn't vote for either of those (they were fielding candidates back
    then), they said they knew those wouldn't win but that the Democrats could
    and were "close enough."

    I had just turned 18 and that is the main reason I registered Republican.


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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Randall Schad on Sat Oct 19 20:11:21 2024
    Hello Randall,

    Followers of the left are notorious for letting others think for them.
    News anchors, entertainers, corporations, organizations, department
    heads, they all get together and decide for you guys how to think.
    That's why we can't get you to disagree with anything the TV says.

    I know I'm sticking my head where it doesn't belong, but I'd like to pose a
    challenge to people on "both sides," as it were.

    A challenge? You really have got to be kidding me.

    The Bill of Rights makes the US Constitution a human rights
    document. But the story continues, and does not end, with just
    those ten amendments.

    Name 3 things where you hold a polar opposite view than the rank and file of
    your party. (And don't wimp out. Show me real issues.)

    Do you hate the US Constitution, and what it stands for? It was
    not perfect when it was written, and it is not perfect today. But
    it has been amended, 27 times, and is getting better as time goes
    on. So what is there not to like? However, let's not dawdle about
    little things. Best to get to the heart of the matter.

    I am so glad you brought this up. But why limit your list to just
    three things, when there are so many more? Let's take a look at the
    list of things this country found most important, as did most of the
    rest of the world, when it came together to make peace rather than
    war after the worldwide conflict known as WWII -

    https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights


    Wowie gee! Imagine that! This is something we all signed on to,
    back in the day when all the countries of the world got together
    to make peace, rather than war! And our very own Congress went
    along with it, after it was signed, making it a part of our law!

    That's right. Under Article VI of the US Constitution, that makes
    this Universal Declaration the Supreme Law of the Land!

    I would start, but I'm a political party orphan.

    Since the first of all human rights is access to quality health
    care, let's start there.

    For Life,
    Lee

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  • From Randall Schad@1:226/44 to Aaron Thomas on Mon Oct 21 15:09:47 2024
    On 17 Oct 2024, Aaron Thomas said the following...

    Name 3 things where you hold a polar opposite view than the rank and file of your party. (And don't wimp out. Show me real issues.)

    1) Ignoring the obvious - my party ignores the obvious bigtime. They ignore the fact that regional GOP chairs are colluding with Democrats.

    Not exactly a platform issue, but I could see where most Republicans wouldn't think that way.

    I dare say, though, that for decades, this standard practice was dubbed a more innocuous term like "politics" as opposed to something more sinister like "collusion."

    2) Ignoring the border - my party's elected representatives have elected to not make any attempts to solve the border crisis.

    This is a big one. I appreciate this commentary, because the messaging is that Democrats are undoing all the work Republicans put in place to make progress on the border.

    3) Ignoring phone calls and emails. Both the RNC and the NY GOP have something in common: they don't answer my calls/emails, or anyone else's.

    I wouldn't look at this as a deviation at all. I think it's fairly common practice that people in government only make reference to "Suzy from Small City" when it suits their election campaigns. Even then, it's not listening with intent to enact change.

    I appreciate the input.

    RS

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  • From Randall Schad@1:226/44 to Mike Powell on Mon Oct 21 15:56:40 2024
    On 18 Oct 2024, Mike Powell said the following...

    Name 3 things where you hold a polar opposite view than the rank and fil your party. (And don't wimp out. Show me real issues.)

    (1) I am pro-choice.

    I have a feeling there are a lot more silent Republicans on this issue. I don't think Ohio's Issue 1 protecting women's rights would have passed here without significant support from the right.

    (2) Not certain this one applies any more, but I seem to be less
    "excited" about getting involved with Israel than the party has been in the past.

    Interesting. I never could wrap my head around Israel. I don't think many people can. It was too complex and outside my wheelhouse when I was younger, and now... Well, how many other issues have commandeered the headlines in the past few decades? :)

    (3) One that is more pertinent as of late is that I don't
    believe the Office of the President having so much power is a good
    thing. I also believe the President is not "always right" even if it is someone I voted for.

    We've hit on this a few times before. We're in full agreement on this one.

    It's funny to me that both parties seem to be on this track. (I know it goes back a bit, but FDR might be the most egregious example on the Democratic side.)

    I came real close a few years ago to becoming a Libertarian but they seem to have shifted towards having no government, which I think would be a mistake.

    I was in that camp for about a decade, during the Harry Browne era. The closer to the inside of that movement I got, the more disillusioned I became -- and that carried into my views across the board.

    I do not believe it is the government's job to redistribute wealth

    With a couple caveats, I think we're pretty much in agreement here.

    to become overly involved in the foreign affairs of another state

    This practice might be one of my biggest frustrations with how we conduct foreign policy. We've seen a century of (sometimes rather severe) unintended consequences resulting from our meddling. We should have learned a lesson from that by now.

    self-identified as "socialist" or "communist." When I would ask them why they didn't vote for either of those (they were fielding candidates back then), they said they knew those wouldn't win but that the Democrats
    could and were "close enough."

    It's the evil of our system, isn't it? When people we elect to represent us don't actually do so, we have to pick the least harmful alternative of the bunch.

    There HAS to be a better way than to pull the lever and blindly hope your interests are being represented a few years down the road. (Oh, and boy do I have ideas! LOL)

    RS

    ... The secret of getting ahead is mastering the guillotine.

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  • From Randall Schad@1:226/44 to Lee Lofaso on Mon Oct 21 16:21:17 2024
    On 19 Oct 2024, Lee Lofaso said the following...

    Hello Randall,

    A challenge? You really have got to be kidding me.

    No, I was rather quite serious. For a lot of people, stepping off the party platform and being vocal about differences on major issues is a challenging thing to do.

    I am so glad you brought this up. But why limit your list to just
    three things, when there are so many more?

    Baby steps. You can continue being the "immediate revolution of thought" guy with the hard look, and I'll continue being the guy who fosters incremental change through introspection.

    Let's take a look at the https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

    I'm very well aware... and I share your dismay that we can't be bothered by things that aren't made in America.

    Since the first of all human rights is access to quality health
    care, let's start there.

    As much as I would personally, immediately, and severely benefit by systemic reform of our health system, it's not something my "party" is out of alignment with.

    I don't have a party affiliation, and very few people appear to think like I do, so the exercise is a little lost on me.

    RS

    ... Avoid arguments about the toilet seat... Use the sink.

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  • From Aaron Thomas@1:342/201 to Randall Schad on Mon Oct 21 14:56:08 2024
    1) Ignoring the obvious - my party ignores the obvious bigtime. They ignore the fact that regional GOP chairs are colluding with Democrats

    Not exactly a platform issue, but I could see where most Republicans wouldn't think that way.

    People on both sides are trusting their committees too much. It makes me wonder how Democrat voters are feeling about the dictatorship of their ill-fated presidential primary.

    2) Ignoring the border - my party's elected representatives have elec to not make any attempts to solve the border crisis.

    This is a big one. I appreciate this commentary, because the messaging
    is that Democrats are undoing all the work Republicans put in place to make progress on the border.

    Yea all the conservatives will agree that there's a border problem but they need to stop blaming just Democrats.

    3) Ignoring phone calls and emails. Both the RNC and the NY GOP have something in common: they don't answer my calls/emails, or anyone els

    I wouldn't look at this as a deviation at all. I think it's fairly common practice that people in government only make reference to "Suzy from
    Small City" when it suits their election campaigns. Even then, it's not listening with intent to enact change.

    To compete with Democrats, the committee needs to answer their phones. I wrote to Colgate about defective toothpaste, and they responded with an apology, a free replacement, and an explanation of what went wrong.

    But when I write to the RNC, they can't even give me an explanation of what went wrong.

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to RANDALL SCHAD on Tue Oct 22 09:42:00 2024
    I have a feeling there are a lot more silent Republicans on this issue. I don'
    think Ohio's Issue 1 protecting women's rights would have passed here without
    significant support from the right.

    I think with my state being south of the Ohio, that didn't necessarily hold true here, unfortunately.

    (2) Not certain this one applies any more, but I seem to be less "excited" about getting involved with Israel than the party has been in the past.

    Interesting. I never could wrap my head around Israel. I don't think many people can. It was too complex and outside my wheelhouse when I was younger, and now... Well, how many other issues have commandeered the headlines in the past few decades? :)

    The West set Israel up after WWII. I never saw or heard of any official promise but it seems to be the policy that we are responsible for helping
    to defend them ever since.

    (3) One that is more pertinent as of late is that I don't
    believe the Office of the President having so much power is a good thing. I also believe the President is not "always right" even if it is someone I voted for.

    We've hit on this a few times before. We're in full agreement on this one.

    It's funny to me that both parties seem to be on this track. (I know it goes back a bit, but FDR might be the most egregious example on the Democratic side.)

    Yeah, he was. I am not sure voters of either party have been so badly that
    way in my lifetime until Obama... maybe Clinton before him but, in
    comparison, there really is no comparision with how they were with
    Obama, and how they've been with Trump. Questioning either of them
    publicly could get you into a lot of hot water with their most ardent supporters.

    I came real close a few years ago to becoming a Libertarian but they seem to have shifted towards having no government, which I think would be a mistake.

    I was in that camp for about a decade, during the Harry Browne era. The closer
    to the inside of that movement I got, the more disillusioned I became -- and that carried into my views across the board.

    Browne seemed logical and not so off the wall. IMHO, they've shifted right since then and really are no longer much different than right-wing
    Republicans. They just are not as scared to say the quiet parts out loud
    as most Republicans are.

    to become overly involved in the foreign affairs of another state

    This practice might be one of my biggest frustrations with how we conduct foreign policy. We've seen a century of (sometimes rather severe) unintended consequences resulting from our meddling. We should have learned a lesson from
    that by now.

    If they didn't learn it before, 9/11 should have finally taught them their lesson. I think they believe the lesson was that they can do it better
    rather than they maybe need to stop.

    It's the evil of our system, isn't it? When people we elect to represent us don't actually do so, we have to pick the least harmful alternative of the bunch.

    There HAS to be a better way than to pull the lever and blindly hope your interests are being represented a few years down the road. (Oh, and boy do I have ideas! LOL)

    I seem to recall voting for candiates because I thought they were the
    best choice but, lately yes it is often the "least harmful alternative" instead. It is like the parties (or the voters!) don't want to pick the
    "best" candidates any more... maybe there are no more left?

    It would be nice to have enough representative and senators in DC who can actually work together to come up with things they can agree on, even if
    they are from a different party, and can compromise on rather than doing nothing but bickering.


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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to AARON THOMAS on Tue Oct 22 09:25:00 2024
    People on both sides are trusting their committees too much. It makes me wonder
    how Democrat voters are feeling about the dictatorship of their ill-fated >presidential primary.

    Most of them, from what I can tell, don't care just so long as they can
    beat Trump with whoever it is. Others seem glad they did it for the same reason -- i.e. they realized after the debate that Joe didn't have a chance.


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  • From Aaron Thomas@1:342/201 to Mike Powell on Tue Oct 22 11:24:02 2024
    People on both sides are trusting their committees too much. It makes me >wonder
    how Democrat voters are feeling about the dictatorship of their ill-fated >presidential primary.

    Most of them, from what I can tell, don't care just so long as they can beat Trump with whoever it is. Others seem glad they did it for the same reason -- i.e. they realized after the debate that Joe didn't have a chance.

    But I don't get why anyone would feel good about replacing one bad candidate with another bad candidate. That doesn't make sense, and it also doesn't make sense for the leftists not to detect the puppetry in progress. "Hmm why does my party keep nominating the stupidest candidates?"

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  • From Randall Schad@1:226/44 to Aaron Thomas on Tue Oct 22 17:13:28 2024
    On 21 Oct 2024, Aaron Thomas said the following...

    People on both sides are trusting their committees too much. It makes me wonder how Democrat voters are feeling about the dictatorship of their ill-fated presidential primary.

    I can't speak for the majority, obviously, but the few I interact with have been pretty much OK with how that all went down.

    I think I'm more bothered that the party has basically said the sitting president isn't fit for office, but they're going to leave him there until the election.

    Yea all the conservatives will agree that there's a border problem but they need to stop blaming just Democrats.

    This is a good part of the reason I got so upset about the bipartisan bill falling through. Progress means no issue for the stump. Grumble.

    I wrote to Colgate about defective toothpaste

    This sentence struck me as far more humorous than was probably intended. :)

    But when I write to the RNC, they can't even give me an explanation of what went wrong.

    Yeah, that's a huge problem. I had a very similar thing when I was with the Libertarian party.

    I wanted to work a polling station for the '04 election, but was barred by the state because I wasn't "a registered member of either of the two primary political parties." Libertarians were really pounding the grassroots thing at the time, so I'm like, "Okay, let's fix the state laws to be more inclusive of third parties."

    Every call and email I sent to the local and state offices went completely unanswered, so I ended up on the phone personally with the Secretary of State. Fought the battle and got a small win at the county level, but without any backing, the state law wasn't getting changed.

    Meanwhile, I was still receiving invitations to the three-digits-per-plate fundraisers and donation begging slips. Sorry folks, that's not how things happen.

    RS

    ... The secret of getting ahead is mastering the guillotine.

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to Aaron Thomas on Tue Oct 22 19:44:12 2024
    Most of them, from what I can tell, don't care just so long as they can beat Trump with whoever it is. Others seem glad they did it for the same reason -- i.e. they realized after the debate that Joe didn't have a chance.

    But I don't get why anyone would feel good about replacing one bad candidate with another bad candidate. That doesn't make sense, and it also doesn't make sense for the leftists not to detect the puppetry in progress. "Hmm why does my party keep nominating the stupidest candidates?"

    Agreed but, to them, any candidate is greater than Trump and, for some of them, any candidate is greater than any Republican candidate.

    $$
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  • From Aaron Thomas@1:342/201 to Randall Schad on Tue Oct 22 17:47:06 2024
    I think I'm more bothered that the party has basically said the sitting president isn't fit for office, but they're going to leave him there
    until the election.

    Thank you. We all should be bothered by that. Bothered by Democrats for not doing something about it, and bothered by Republicans for them not doing something about it either despite having the house majority.

    I wanted to work a polling station for the '04 election, but was barred
    by the state because I wasn't "a registered member of either of the two primary political parties." Libertarians were really pounding the grassroots thing at the time, so I'm like, "Okay, let's fix the state
    laws to be more inclusive of third parties."

    That's suspicious. I would trust the 3rd party even more in that case.

    Every call and email I sent to the local and state offices went
    completely unanswered, so I ended up on the phone personally with the Secretary of State. Fought the battle and got a small win at the county level, but without any backing, the state law wasn't getting changed.

    Meanwhile, I was still receiving invitations to the
    three-digits-per-plate fundraisers and donation begging slips. Sorry folks, that's not how things happen.

    Similar story: I recently wrote a letter to the Broome County Republicans chairman to ask him if he found a candidate for County Executive, and he didn't answer me at all and he just started sending me his newsletter, and the newsletter didn't answer my question either. (The ballot will answer my question I guess.)

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  • From Aaron Thomas@1:342/201 to Mike Powell on Tue Oct 22 20:55:06 2024
    But I don't get why anyone would feel good about replacing one bad cand with another bad candidate. That doesn't make sense, and it also doesn' make sense for the leftists not to detect the puppetry in progress. "Hm does my party keep nominating the stupidest candidates?"

    Agreed but, to them, any candidate is greater than Trump and, for some
    of them, any candidate is greater than any Republican candidate.

    We need them to reassess their reasons for being loyal to the Democrat party. I don't know anyone who's benefiting from their reign.

    We've asked the lefties several times for a list of things that Democrats have done for them but they are always speechless when it comes time to answer that question. I'm optimistic that people will learn from that "speechless" situation that it puts them in.

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to AARON THOMAS on Wed Oct 23 08:38:00 2024
    I think I'm more bothered that the party has basically said the sitting president isn't fit for office, but they're going to leave him there until the election.

    Thank you. We all should be bothered by that. Bothered by Democrats for not doing something about it, and bothered by Republicans for them not doing something about it either despite having the house majority.

    The Republican Party may see a benefit of leaving a "now" lame duck (in
    more ways that one) President in office. If they had dome something about
    it, that would result in Harris finishing out the term. That could be bad
    for Republicans if something major comes up and she handles it well (making herself look Presidential) or handles it very poorly (it was their fault
    for removing Biden).

    I wanted to work a polling station for the '04 election, but was barred by the state because I wasn't "a registered member of either of the two primary political parties." Libertarians were really pounding the grassroots thing at the time, so I'm like, "Okay, let's fix the state laws to be more inclusive of third parties."

    That's suspicious. I would trust the 3rd party even more in that case.

    Unfortunately, most states (and the country as a whole) have their rules
    set to favor the two major parties and exclude any others.


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  • From Randall Schad@1:226/44 to Mike Powell on Wed Oct 23 17:36:53 2024
    On 22 Oct 2024, Mike Powell said the following...

    Interesting. I never could wrap my head around Israel. I don't think man

    The West set Israel up after WWII. I never saw or heard of any official promise but it seems to be the policy that we are responsible for helping to defend them ever since.

    My understanding of the foundation was basically allowing Jewish immigrants to pick whatever place they wanted to live and kick the Muslim residents out. "Sorry, folks. Gotta go." That's what I couldn't understand. How was there not a more carefully crafted bilateral plan that wouldn't lead to the craziness like the PLO that followed? (And the insanity we're seeing now.)

    Certainly, the Jewish community required safe haven following WWII. And obviously, the historical/religious significance of Israel is incredible. But there had to have been a better way to execute that.

    Browne seemed logical and not so off the wall. IMHO, they've shifted right since then and really are no longer much different than right-wing Republicans. They just are not as scared to say the quiet parts out loud as most Republicans are.

    I share that view.

    I feel silly about it now, but I used to also think that complete privatization and deregulation should have been one of the pillars of our society. After witnessing how soulless and immoral (not amoral) business is firsthand, however... Yeah, no thanks.

    This practice might be one of my biggest frustrations with how we conduc foreign policy. We've seen a century of (sometimes rather severe) uninte consequences resulting from our meddling. We should have learned a lesso from that by now.

    If they didn't learn it before, 9/11 should have finally taught them
    their lesson. I think they believe the lesson was that they can do it better rather than they maybe need to stop.

    Again, we're on the exact same page here.

    It would be nice to have enough representative and senators in DC who can actually work together to come up with things they can agree on, even if they are from a different party, and can compromise on rather than doing nothing but bickering.

    Part of me thinks I'm romanticizing the political landscape leading up to the 2000s, but I genuinely feel that there was more respectful aisle crossing and cooperative dialogue in the past. It's only recently -- with a bit of help from talk radio and a few very vocal, unfiltered candidates -- that things seem to have gotten to the point where lifelong relationships are ended and it feels like we're on the verge of spilling words over into violent action.

    RS

    ... "Road work ahead" ... I sure hope it does!

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to RANDALL SCHAD on Thu Oct 24 10:13:00 2024
    The West set Israel up after WWII. I never saw or heard of any official promise but it seems to be the policy that we are responsible for helping
    to defend them ever since.

    My understanding of the foundation was basically allowing Jewish immigrants to
    pick whatever place they wanted to live and kick the Muslim residents out. "Sorry, folks. Gotta go." That's what I couldn't understand. How was there not
    a more carefully crafted bilateral plan that wouldn't lead to the craziness like the PLO that followed? (And the insanity we're seeing now.)

    IMHO, had they picked one of the other places, they would have been kicking
    out whoever was there, Muslim or otherwise.

    Several years back, but sometime in the last 10-12 years, PBS ran a special that detailed the history of the area pre-WWI. The area was part of the Ottoman Empire and was populated by Muslims, Jews, and Christians. As they were natives, they mostly got along and respected each others customs.

    Europe had a Zionist movement going on. European Jews started coming into the area, claiming the best land (which had been open and used by nomadic
    herders), and setting up their communes. They didn't like interacting with
    the natives in a friendly manner. Some of the communes shipped in
    non-Jewish thugs (often Russians) to help keep the natives off their land.

    This eventually lead to some skirmishes and at least one non-Zionist death.
    The Ottomans were able to bring the groups together to start talking but then WWI broke out and they eventually lost control of the area to the British.

    Things really have not been right since then and, as you point out, once
    that area was chosen for the permanent state, things have only been worse
    for the natives (mostly and especially the Muslim ones).

    Certainly, the Jewish community required safe haven following WWII. And obviously, the historical/religious significance of Israel is incredible. But
    there had to have been a better way to execute that.

    Indeed. IMHO, one of the stipulations for setting up the country should
    have been that "you can't treat the natives like the Nazis treated you and,
    if you do, you lose our support."

    Some would argue that this could not be foreseen but, seeing how things
    were going with the Zionist settlers before WWI, I would strongly beg to differ.

    I feel silly about it now, but I used to also think that complete privatizatio
    and deregulation should have been one of the pillars of our society. After witnessing how soulless and immoral (not amoral) business is firsthand, however... Yeah, no thanks.

    I never quite got that far with privatization but, yeah, after seeing how businesses treat the public and their own employees, no that is not the
    right way either. It is just the opposite extreme to too much
    government control.

    Part of me thinks I'm romanticizing the political landscape leading up to the 2000s, but I genuinely feel that there was more respectful aisle crossing and cooperative dialogue in the past. It's only recently -- with a bit of help fro
    talk radio and a few very vocal, unfiltered candidates -- that things seem to have gotten to the point where lifelong relationships are ended and it feels like we're on the verge of spilling words over into violent action.

    There was always a certain amount of "cesspool" involved with Congress but it has gotten a whole lot worse. Talk radio may have started it, but I believe that was long superceeded by social media. It isn't just Congresspeople
    any more. Extremists aside, it used to be that citizens could get along with others who didn't share their political views. There seems to be some
    movement among younger people (and many older ones now, too) where they
    really don't want to have anything to do with someone who may only disagree
    on a few political things, rather than try to find any common ground.

    If I had been that way in college, I would not have had any friends. Then again, I get this impression mostly from watching social media interactions
    so it could all be make believe, too. ;)


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