• Re: Speaker Mike Johnson

    From IB Joe@1:342/201 to Tobias Ernst on Thu Apr 25 11:25:08 2024
    On 25 Apr 2024, Tobias Ernst said the following...


    Hi,

    I dislike the wording "funding a war in Ukraine".

    What the US funds is the Ukrainian defense operation against the Russian genocidal incursion. That's quite a difference.


    I disagree with most everything you say...

    After Biden got into office Boris Johnson squashed and agreement that Ukraine and Russia had come to... No war needed we have an agreement.

    This was done with the approval of the White House.

    War became eminent.

    This fact is not in dispute. It was reported in the mainstream media and was covered in the Tucker interview with Putin.

    Back in the day President Eisenhower made a speech where he warned the American people about the Industrial Military Complex. Since then the US has caused in some-way a lot of conflict... North Korea, Vietnam, The Middle East and the list goes on and Libya... Syria... The list is endless. These are a short list of few that we know about. There are countless others that the CIA, FBI and the deep-state have funded and or started that we don't know about.

    The other day a congressmen was holding up a small bag of washers... apparently this , hand-held-bag, cost the US tax payers $90,000.00. The US Military says it cannot account for 1 TRILLION... Thats 1,000,000,000,000.00 ... They have no-clue and no one is held to account.

    Since WWII every conflict that the US has been in, by proxy or otherwise, has not ended well. Trillions spent... millions die... 10s of millions suffer and regions of the world, like the middle east, hate the US and would do anything to kill Americans... Primarily because of our foreign policy.

    Putin had made it clear that he didn't want NATO countries pushing up on his border... I can see his point. The western powers squash the Ukraine-Russia deal and then made a UN speech talking about Ukraine's entry in to NATO. Biden picking the fight and starting a war...

    What I just said is fact, mainstream media reported and you can still see the UN speech on YouTube.

    Most American's would argue that the money shouldn't just be given to Ukraine without any accountability.... 100s of Billions of dollars given to a country to protect their borders while the US is being invaded through their unprotected border.

    They don't send a team of accountants over to see what it is they are spending the money on... No accounting what-so-ever.

    Trump has pointed out that collectively Europe's economy is on par with the US this Russia/Ukraine thing affects Europe more than the US but the US seems to be funding it ~85% ... Why?? If this is as you describe it... Nazi-Like... Hitler 2.0 ...as you rub your hands together... and laugh with a sinister intent.

    If this is so... The US does not need to spend itself into oblivion for a country 1000s of mikes away with a country that Europe doesn't even care enough about to match the contributions the US is making.

    I am not sure exactly where you live... You referred to my thoughts, and or, the US being isolationists... Well there is the pesky constitution... and for the most part it was looking at the US, as a country, having a small footprint in foreign affairs. Wars would be declared by congress, not the president or the deep-state, though what I just said... is fact... The last time the US officially declared war was during WWII. During WWII they used this feature 6 out of the 11 times... Japan, Germany, Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania. Every time the conflict was escalated they addressed it in congress. They didn't take the original cause to enter WWII., Japan, and try to milk that for a few decades...

    Anyway, since WWII congress has never been asked to give the president war powers... But they/them have been out there kicking ass and taking names. Spending Trillions and killing millions and millions.

    Ukraine will not win this conflict. Election season in the US and the citizens are getting tired of it. Funding will dry up... The powers to be force an agreement... That agreement will look like the original agreement... Ukraine doesn't join NATO and Russia gets Crimea.

    BTW, we know why the US has funded as much as it has... Ukraine's president knows what 10% got the Big Guy, has the receipts and knows where all the bodies are.

    All this was done late at night, no debate and all hidden from the American people. The Speaker of The House is conflicted in some way... They have some dirt on him... or as I said in my original post that he's trying to protect the majority.

    If he's trying to protect the majority... well a few more billion won't hurt and of course with that millions more might die. Mark my words there will be a deal struck some time before November.

    IB Joe, Pronouns (FJB/LGB)
    AKA Joe Schweier
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  • From Tobias Ernst@2:240/5853.10 to IB Joe on Mon Apr 29 12:30:00 2024
    Dear Joe,

    I dislike the wording "funding a war in Ukraine".

    What the US funds is the Ukrainian defense operation against the Russian TE>> genocidal incursion. That's quite a difference.


    I disagree with most everything you say...

    I hope at least you do not disagree with the basic premise quoted above. Because if you don't even accept that there is a genocidal incursion and
    that Ukraine has not been waging or been threatening to wage war on Russia
    at any point in time, but is now defending itself aginst a genocidal incursion, then there's no point in continue a then facts-free discussion.

    After Biden got into office Boris Johnson squashed and agreement that
    Ukraine and Russia had come to... No war needed we have an agreement.

    This is an element of the fine art of Russian propaganda, which always
    sticks more or less to the truth, but frames it the truth a very unique
    way that you makes the audicent make the wrong conclusions.

    It is true that if you follow the time line the Boris Johnson visit to Selensky was one of the last encounters before the peace agreement finally failed.

    It is also true that if you read the peace agreement, which recently has
    been published in all major German media, so I suppose you also can read a translation of it in the U.S. media, and if you read it without an understanding of the Russian-Ukrainian history, then you could come to the conclusion that it was a very unwise thing for Ukraine to reject it
    because if they had signed it, right now, there would be no killing. I
    think that's what you are trying to say.

    Now let me share with you the Ukrainian perspective.

    Ukraine hat that point had seen Russia waging war on it since 2014. There
    was the Crimea incursion, after which ALL Western partners told Ukraine to keep quiet. Then there was the Donbas incursion after which Europe started the Minsk peace process, which as we know gave Ukraine some time, ended
    some killing, but ultimately could not lead to peace because at least one party to the table, namely Russia, was not really interested in peace. It
    was a consistent experience of Ukrainians at the time that Russia always leads its international politics such that it tries to gain post facto approval for its wars by the West and at the same time secure its position
    to be able to continue the war at a later time. This is consistent
    behavior of Russia in fact already since the time of the famous Budapest memorandum, a paper in which not only UK, US, France, but also Russia guaranteed the independence an territorial integertiy of Ukraine. The West started to trade with Russia in response to that, Ukraine surrendered its nuclear arsenal in resposne to that, and what has Ukraine of it now?


    This is the experience that everyone in Ukraine had. So at the time when
    the Istanbul negotations took place, it was TOTALL IRRELVANT to any
    Ukrainian party including Selesnky himself what some guests from abroad,
    be that Johnson, Steinmeier, Macron, Baerbock or who not had to say to
    them. Ukrainians knew what they wanted at the time: not just any kind of peace, but a *just* peace which is set up in a way that no further
    incursion by Russia is possible.

    If you read the text of the failed Istanbul agreement from this angle, you will realize that Russia wnated to keep part of strategically important Ukrainian territory, it wanted to totally disarm Ukraine, it wanted to
    keep Ukraine out of any Western alliance, and it agreed to give Ukraine in return a security agreement signed by the Western powers and Russia. So
    far, Ukraine might ahve accepted this, this is why they led negotiations
    at all. However, crucically, in the agreement, there is a point that says that Russia was granted a right to veto any Western support for Ukraine in the event of invocation of the security guarantee, and Russia was not prepared to drop this point.

    This is like a provision that a sheep agrees to take down the electric
    fence around its meadow in exchange for an agreement between the shepherd
    and the wolve, in which it is written that the wolve has the right to veto any protective actions such has bringing in the dog by the shepherd in the event that the wolve might want to devour the sheep in the future (which
    of course is completely outside the wolve's intentions ...).

    The latter provision made the agreement unacceptable to Ukraine and they would not have signed it no matter what Boris Johnson's agenda on said meeting might have been.

    I hope you can follow me up to this point.


    The next question is what the U.S. should or should not do about it. I
    accept that you are U.S. citicens and I am not so I have only a limited
    right to speak to this topic and we might not find agreement here.


    Let me simply (loosely) quote Timothy Snyder here from a recent lecture of his:

    "Even if we convince ourselves that Ukraine is unimportant ... pretty much every one around the world looks at Ukraine as an incredibly easy test for us. We don't have to send soldiers. The amount of money concerned is
    frekly invisible. Ideologically, Ukraine is exactly the case we keep
    saying we care about: a democracy which is directly threatened. So, if we can't pass a test which our allies and everyone else regards as incredibly easy, we cannot expect our allies and adversaries and everyone else to
    think that we would pass any harder test in the future."

    You can view an excpert from the lecture here: https://x.com/NFX360/status/1784621066494558391
    or see the full one here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVs2y-YeiFM&t=2s

    As citizen of a so-far ally of the U.S. I can confirm that this is how we view the U.S.'s role here. I agree that Europe should step up even more
    and send even more money and material and determination into this thing, because it is on our continnent. Trump is right when he says this. But the U.S.'s reputation is really at stake when they pull out altogether.

    Now you could give a shit about your reputation abroad and say that
    schools in the U.S. are more important. The worrying thing about this is, however, that if a military superpower fails a comparatively easy test,
    the adversaries are very sure to come up with a harder test. Think of
    Taiwan. If Chinae wages war there because it looses respect for the U.S.'s capabilities, then the semiconductor industry will be disrupted so heavily that it could take our economies down - which then will have also an
    effect on U.S. schools.

    Kind regards,
    Tobias

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