I learned recently that an English pie can be countable
and uncountable.
I understand uncountable ice cream, but I don't
understand uncountable pie. ;-)
I learned recently that an English pie can be countable andAbsolutely.
uncountable.
I understand uncountable ice cream, but I don't understand
uncountable pie. ;-)
In English, they are the same. Both `cream' and `pie' can denote
the substance, rather than the thing it constitutes. In /Dasee
Macabre/ Steven Kings quotes an old radio show where the jealous
dentist locked an adulterer in his dental chair and "let out some
of lover-boy". Yikes! but uncountable.
For more pleasant example, heed Rosemary Clooney sing "I will give
you candy!" in /Come on a-My House/.
The absence of "a" article after "of" is another
different English song.
For more pleasant example, heed Rosemary Clooney sing
"I will give you candy!" in /Come on a-My House/.
I heard that in songs the Grammar rules are not
necessary at all. The rhyme is more important. ;-)
I learned recently that an English pie can be countable
and uncountable.
What does the latter mean?
She was sitting at the dining room table with the other
children, two of whom were eating pie and ice cream with
expressions of immense satisfaction."
I understand uncountable ice cream, but I don't understand
uncountable pie. ;-)
She was itting at the diining room table with the otherhere I come fromm, ice cream is measured by volume or
children two of whom werre eating pie and ice cream with
expressions of immense satisfaction."
I undersand uncountable ice cream, but I don't understand
uncountable pie. ;-)
by weight.. and I see you understand that. When you visit a
bakery, hoever, you may nootice it offers "pies, cakes, and pastries"
for sale. You can purchasee one or more such items as you wish or make them yourslf at home. Eitther way I see that in this example there are probably oe or more grownuups & at least two kids who need to be
fed, in whch case the thriifty housewife would cut a large pie into servings (r pieces or porttions) of whatever size she deems to be most appropriate. :-Q
Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:
I learned recently that an English pie can be countable
and uncountable.
Uh-huh. And since you just happen to know an English major who earned her university fees working in the restaurant business...
What does the latter mean?
... I can tell you the average pie is about the size of a dinner plate & may be divided into roughly six or eight pieces, depending on various factors such as what one's customers want &/or how many mouths one is expected to feed. Nowadays I know of a few places around here where one can get individual sizes. Maybe one couldn't years ago, but you didn't say when your excerpt was written. Singletons & childless couples were less common when I was growing up.... :-))
She was sitting at the dining room table with the other
children, two of whom were eating pie and ice cream with
expressions of immense satisfaction."
I understand uncountable ice cream, but I don't understand
uncountable pie. ;-)
Where I come from, ice cream is measured by volume or by weight... and I see you understand that. When you visit a bakery, however, you may notice it offers "pies, cakes, and pastries" for sale. You can purchase one or more such items as you wish or make them yourself at home. Either way I see that in this example there are probably one or more grownups & at least two kids who need to be fed, in which case the thrifty housewife would cut a large pie into servings (or pieces or portions) of whatever size she deems to be most appropriate. :-Q
--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
I learnedrecently that ann English pie can be countable and
uncountable.
Uh-huh. An since you just happen to know an English major who
earned heruniversity fees working in the restaurant business...
What does the latter mean?
... I can ell you the averrage pie is about the size of a dinner
plate & ma be divided intoo roughly six or eight pieces, depending
on variousfactors such as what one's customers want &/or how many
mouths oneis expected to ffeed. Nowadays I know of a few places
around her where one can gget individual sizes. Maybe one couldn't
years ago,but you didn't ssay when your excerpt was written.
Singletons& childless coupples were less common when I was growing
up.... :-))
She was stting at the dinning room table with the other children,
two of whm were eating piie and ice cream with expressions of
immense satisfaction."
I understnd uncountable iice cream, but I don't understand
uncountable pie. ;-)
Where I coe from, ice creaam is measured by volume or by weight...
and I see ou understand thhat. When you visit a bakery, however,
you may noice it offers "ppies, cakes, and pastries" for sale. You
can purchae one or more suuch items as you wish or make them
yourself a home. Either waay I see that in this example there are
probably oe or more grown--ups & at least two kids who need to be
fed, in whch case the thriifty housewife would cut a large pie into servings (r pieces or porttions) of whatever size she deems to be
most appropriate.:-Q
[...]I understnd uncountable iice cream, but I don't understand
[...]Where I coe from, ice creaam is measured by volume or by
Fri 01-12-2023 08:15, Alexander Koryagin (2:221/6) »¿ßá½(á) Ardith Hinton:
[...]I understnd uncountable iice cream, but I don't understand
[...]Where I coe from, ice creaam is measured by volume or by
The bug seems to persist, as of now.
[...]Yes. :( Seems that lines starting with space will get bad. It has something to do with 64bit because the same code compiled in 32bit
The bug seems to persist, as of now.
system seems ok.
I only noticed that shortly after exchanging quote-replies with A.K.
(happens on a second iteration of quoting from his end), and never with anyone else from your origin, so far. Could it be some sort of software clash?
Well, a pie can be cut into portions, but anyway it should
theoretically remained a pie. FMPOV. ;)
Well, a pie can be cut into portions, but anyway it should
theoretically remained a pie. IMPOV. ;)
Sometimes it may not work this way. E. g. talking about food, you
can hear something along the lines of:
"...Nutella has become out comfort food, we like it with banana or pretzels."
Many types of food (besides pie, cake, ice cream, candy etc.) can
be referred to as uncountable when served in slices, even if you
still think of it as "countable".
On the other hand, mentioned as a dish, like a menu item you may
order in a cafe or restaurant, it should be referred to as
countable:
"...They got a cherry pie there that'll kill ya!"
So, again, it's complicated.
"...Nutella has become out comfort food, we like it with bananaNutella is like ice-cream, it is understandable.
or pretzels."
out ?-> our
banana ?-> bananas
On the other hand, mentioned as a dish, like a menu item you mayI think that the matter is simpler. When they say in the dictionary
order in a cafe or restaurant, it should be referred to as
countable:
"...They got a cherry pie there that'll kill ya!"
So, again, it's complicated.
that pie is both countable and uncountable in use they just mean that
you _can_ put an indefinite article before "pie", or you are free not
to put it.
The same situation with steak:
"I had steak and kidney pie with chips"
but probably is also correct
"I had a steak and (a) kidney pie with chips"
I also suspect that the more the speech is informal the less articles
it contains. ;-)
The same situation with steak:
"I had steak and kidney pie with chips" but probably is also correct
"I had a steak and (a) kidney pie with chips"
I'm afraid you got it wrong here. "Steak & kidney pie" is "nee
entity".
Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a savoury pie========
filled principally with a mixture of diced beef, diced kidney
(which may be beef, lamb, veal, or pork) and onion. (google)
Thus, the first one is the correct usage, the second makes no- "What was it?"
sense.
I also suspect that the more the speech is informal the less
articles it contains. ;-)
I don't think there's such a connection, or dependency. But without
tutors it's getting hard to settle this kind of dispute. :-)
Again, I could try to explain the usage via some abstractions (this
is how I believe it works):
1. Mom: texts "Did you eat?"
Son: "Yeah sure"
M: "What was it"
S: "Steak and kidney pie with chips"
M: "Good"
2. Friend: asks "So last night you went to that restaurant?"
Me: "Yeah"
F: "How was it?"
M: "Great, I had a steak and kidney pie, at last"
F: "THAT pie? For real? With chips?"
M: "Yeah, it's something else! Highly recommended."
Do you realize the difference between those two? Both are casual
dialogue instances that can occur everyday everywhere.
========
Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a savoury========
pie filled principally with a mixture of diced beef, diced kidney
(which may be beef, lamb, veal, or pork) and onion. (google)
"Steak and kidney pie" _are_ different dishes. "Steak" is just a piece
of meat, IMHO.
2. Friend: asks "So last night you went to that restaurant?"Why "at last"?
Me: "Yeah"
F: "How was it?"
M: "Great, I had a steak and kidney pie, at last"
F: "THAT pie? For real? With chips?"-"else"? Maybe "Yeah, it's something! Highly recommended."
M: "Yeah, it's something else! Highly recommended."
Do you realize the difference between those two? Both are casualI still don't see why I cannot use "a" in the first example. ;)
dialogue instances that can occur everyday everywhere.
S: "Steak and kidney pie with chips"
M: "Good"
========
Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a
savoury pie filled principally with a mixture of diced
beef, diced kidney (which may be beef, lamb, veal, or
pork) and onion. (google)
========
"Steak and kidney pie" _are_ different dishes.
"Steak" is just a piece of meat, IMHO.
I also suspect that the more the speech is informal the
less articles it contains. ;-)
I don't think there's such a connection, or dependency.
But without tutors it's getting hard to settle this kind
of dispute. :-)
Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a savoury
pie filled principally with a mixture of diced beef, diced kidney
(which may be beef, lamb, veal, or pork) and onion. (googe))
"Steak and kidney pie" _are_ different dishes. "Steak" is just a
piece of meat, IMHO.
In theory, yes, it could be that S and KP /are/ different dishes.
In the real life "anglosphere", not so much.:-)
If you think about it, it's not a great idea to have both steak and
pie with diced meat in one meal, to begin with. Sure you can afford
and have both and add a bag of "Lay's" to that, because why not?
But in anglo- or british cuisine S&KP is positively one dish (and a recipe), as quoted above, plus "chips" aren't crisps like Lay's or Estrella but simply a plate of sliced and fried potato,
like "french fries" in North America. Just indulge yourself and do
a little bit of research on the matter. Otherwise, how would you
learn things?
2. Friend: asks "So last night you went to that restauran??"
Me: "Yeah"
F: "How was it?"
M: "Great, I had a steak and kidney pie, at last"
Why "at last"?
Because I was going to try it for a while and that day the
opportunity presented itself.
Do you realize the difference between those two? Both are casualI still don't see why I cannot use "a" in the first example.;;)
dialogue instances that can occur everyday everywhere.
The more you learn the more you will see why you should or
shouldn't use those depending on the variety of context. None of
us 'tutees' is perfect here, we just keep on learning.
========
Steak and kidney pie is a popular British dish. It is a savoury
pie filled principally with a mixture of diced beef, diced kidney
(which may be beef, lamb, veal, or pork) and onion. (google)
========
"Steak and kidney pie" _are_ different dishes.
No. Would you say fish & chips, macaroni & cheese, or corned beef & cabbage are separate dishes? To me, as a person with ex-Brit roots,
these are classic combinations which I think of as a unit. I don't
know of anyone who'd eat a pie made only with kidneys &/or boiled
macaroni with cheese on the side, but I do know of various ways to
serve most of the items listed above.
Because English isn't your native language you translate thiggs
like this word for word. I'm told the same occurs when Canadians
are travelling in Florida, BTW, so you needn't feel embarrassed...
[grin].
"Steak" is just a piece of meat, IMHO.
If you tell me you had steak for dinner, yes. I'd say the same when
I've bought a large piece at the grocery store & cut it up to feed
the family. But at a restaurant people usually order single
servings by weight. You might ask for a ten-ounce steak, e..,,
while your companion wants more or less. :-)
I also suspect that the more the speech is informal the less
articles it contains. ;-)
I don't think there's such a connection, or dependency. But
without tutors it's getting hard to settle this kind of
dispute. :-)
I'm here. While I can't always keep up with you guys, I'm delighted
to see the increase in traffic since Gleb joined us in
ENGLISH_TUTOR.... :-))
I prefer English classics:
-----Beginning of the citation-----
George suggested meat and fruit pies, cold
meat, tomatoes, fruit, and green stuff. For drink, we took some
wonderful sticky concoction of Harris's, which you mixed with water
and called lemonade, plenty of tea, and a bottle of whisky, in
case, as George said, we got upset.
----- The end of the citation -----
Could the author omit "a" and say about fruit pie?
After all when people speak they don't use any commas. A sentence -
that is the main lexical unit, IMHO. ;) An English person
pronounces words in such a way that no commas can help for the
listener. Only the experience to listen it from the birth. The
melody of phrases.
or even an unimaginable meat and fruit pie!).
meat, tomatoes, fruit, and green stuff.
eat plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables
Why "at last"?
Because I was going to try it for a while and that day theAH, you have been trying to test it for all your life... :)
opportunity presented itself.
I prefer English classics:
George suggested meat and fruit pies, cold meat, tomatoes, fruit, and green stuff.
Could the author omit "a" and say about fruit pie?
in anglo- or british cuisine S&KP is positively one dish
(and a recipe), as quoted above,
plus "chips" aren't crisps like Lay's or Estrella but
simply a plate of sliced and fried potato,
like "french fries" in North America.
The reference here is the type of food, not the amount
or quantity of it, like portions, servings, etc.
None of us 'tutees' is perfect here, we just keep on
learning.
I prefer English classics:-----Beginning of the citation-----
George suggested meat and fruit pies, cold
meat, tomatoes, fruit, and green stuff. For drink, we took some
wonderful sticky concoction of Harris's, which you mixed with water
and called lemonade, plenty of tea, and a bottle of whisky,inn
case, as George said, we got upset.
----- The end of the citation -----
Could the author omit "a" and say about fruit pie?
As I read the above, the author DID omit "a", and that's correct as
(I gather from the context) s/he is talking about more than one pie (regardless of whether it's a meat or a fruit pie, or even an
unimaginable meat and fruit pie!).
After all when people speak they don't use any commas. A
sentence - that is the main lexical unit, IMHO. ;) An
English person pronounces words in such a way that no
commas can help for the listener. Only the experience to
listen it from the birth. The melody of phrases.
I have to diagree with you, Alexander. When I speak,
particularly if I'm reading a prepared script, I use the comaas
to indicate a breathing point, a chance for silence to separtte
my thoughts. So the commas are heard, in that sense.
Could the author use "pie" instead of "pies" like in the text than
started the tread?
Yes, probably all the comma rules can be brought together to the
physics. If you want a pause put a comma, or even two or three.
Like this:
"Can you remember that guy,,, from english_tutor, Alexander, as far
as I remember?"
It would be great! We'll bring the text closer to the text ;-)
particularly if I'm reading a prepared script, I use the comaasYes, probably all the comma rules can be brought together to the
to indicate a breathing point, a chance for silence to separtte
my thoughts. So the commas are heard, in that sense.
physics. If you want a pause put a comma, or even two or three. Like
this:
"Can you remember that guy,,, from english_tutor, Alexander, as far as
I remember?"
It would be great! We'll bring the text closer to the text ;-)
in anglo- or british cuisine S&KP is positively one dishAgreed. Dallas & I had it for dinner recently, when our daughter was not at home, because she prefers steak & Guinness or lamb
(and a recipe), as quoted above,
& mint.
Do I need to explain, though, that we buy individual portions
made by an ex-Brit whom we met when he operated a butcher shop in our neighbourhood &/or that I gave up trying to make it because Dallas & I found the smell of kidneys boiling for three-four hours offputting?
For a lot of people this could be too much information. :-Q
Usually cut lengthwise & deep fried, as is the fish... i.e.
if you're buying it from a restaurant. There are boxed & frozen equivalents, but I would not recommend them. When I'm cooking fish at home I tend to pan fry it & serve it with boiled potatoes because I
find deep frying quite impractical unless one is expected to produce
large quantities of such stuff on a daily basis.... :-)
like "french fries" in North America.Or English fries, if you're speaking French.
What many people... including some of our neighbours to the south who don't live near the border... fail to understand is that
their idea of chips is what the British refer to as crisps. I don't expect everyone to know that, but third & fourth generation Canadian
kids understand "fish & chips" because it is a classic combination referred to by this title since the 1800's at least. :-)
None of us 'tutees' is perfect here, we just keep onHey... nobody's perfect, including me! And one of the
learning.
things I enjoy about the study of English is that there's always more
to learn. :-))
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