• Re: Fourth Industrial Rev

    From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Arelor on Thu Aug 6 10:21:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 08:26 pm

    I think what happened is the end result of Capitalism. Capitalists (people
    w
    ho have capital) brought this about, wanted the bail outs. Ther
    are two types of "Capitalism". The economic ideology, the system based on
    id
    eals and axiom, and the real Capitalism, the system that results
    when Capitalists bend the system to work in their benefit.

    Bailouts are a fundamental part of Capitalism, because Capitalists want
    them.
    Capitalism is what Capitalists do, not what the unacheivable
    ideal is.

    I agree they should have gone broke, no bailout. Agree. But such a system
    i
    s where one those who own and control capital don't have as much
    power as they do. So we have a paradox here. To be closer to the
    Capitalist
    "ideal", we actually have to take political and economic power
    away from Capitalists.

    You are implying that being filthy right and having lots of megabucks
    in participations and firm shares makes you a capitalist. Which it doesn't.

    I am saying that. I am saying that if you are in the business of earning money by owning capital (ie, owning investments, companies, etc, which many many filthy rich people do), then you are de facto, a Capitalist. How can you not be? You are literally fulfilling the defintion of a Capitalist by playing the role of one. Just because you THINK differently, doesn't mean you aren't what you are.

    There are capitalists too, there are people who believe in the ideals of Capitalism, and often I find these people are employees, so their role is to serve Capital and Capitalists. That is a different type of capitalist. I'm talking about Capitalists. (note the capitalisaion, pun intended). The opinion of capitalists don't matter squat as employees. Our system is Capitalism, not Employeeism.

    Lots of filthy rich (or not so filthy rich people) is quite Keynessian
    and would have no ethical issue with bailouts and the like.

    Quite so. Why the hell would people who own Capital want to get rid of tax-payer funded bailouts, and of regulation and laws that can cripple their competition? Why would Jeff Bezos want to be put into a position where he has to pay employees a living wage, instead of having his labour subsidised by tax-payer funded welfare? Why would people who own investment properties not want the tax-payer subsidised Negative Gearing and other concessions? Of course they would vote for and support that! Why would Bill Gates want in the 1990s fairer competition?

    You don't become a filthy rich Capitalist by having "ethical issues"!! Imagine you were responsible for a major financial entity, that was to be bailed out, and a "capitalist" employee starting agitating for and end to bail outs, in his own private life. A good Capitalist wanting to keep their money and power would fire such a person, they are not acting in the interests of the Capital!

    What you are asking for, is impossible, a paradox. The ideal "capitalist" world is just as fanciful as the ideal Marxist world.


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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Thu Aug 6 10:45:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 08:26 pm

    I think what happened is the end result of Capitalism. Capitalists (people who have capital) brought this about, wanted the bail outs. There are two types of "Capitalism". The economic ideology, the system based on ideals and axiom, and the real Capitalism, the system that results when Capitalists bend the system to work in their benefit.

    Bailouts are a fundamental part of Capitalism, because Capitalists want them. Capitalism is what Capitalists do, not what the unacheivable ideal is.

    I agree they should have gone broke, no bailout. Agree. But such a system is where one those who own and control capital don't have as much power as they do. So we have a paradox here. To be closer to the Capitalist "ideal", we actually have to take political and economic power away from Capitalists.

    Capitalism in practice has a finite shelf life. It's the same as saying communism works... which it does, but only in theory. When people in power, use that power to maintain and expand their power, they can
    corrupt either ideology to their will.

    Perhaps there's a need for a new and permanant economic constitution
    based on the theoretical ideals of capitalism that worked so well for
    the US in the past.

    Capitalism is structurally flawed. Like many ideological systems, it has to accept "exceptions" to maintain power. The big one is the loss of self governmance when someone goes to "Work". The workplace is an odd exception in western civilisation, because somehow it is considered outside of our civlisation, a place where property rights and right to self-governance are suspended. Capitalism maintains this 'dual system' notion, where at any other time, we are citizens with property rights, but at "work", we cease to become so. The closest we were to a capitalist ideal was post-feudalism, when most people were self-sufficient, living off the land.

    We need to fully realise this ideal, which never really existed in the first place.

    I don't know what "Communism works in theory" is supposed to mean. Does that mean there is a theory proven correct? I've never seen proof that it can work, even in theory. The "labour theory of value" is theoretically wrong.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Wed Aug 5 16:03:00 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 10:26 pm

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:20 pm

    relation to jobs that cannot be exported overseas. The fast food indust will soon become close to fully automated, driver/haulage industry


    well for quite a long time, every once in a while i hear about a pizza makin

    a bigmac and cheeseburger vending machine would be a hit at my workplace. ou

    It's probably for political reasons (lots of folks losing entry level jobs) that keep the automated kitchens from seeing service. Back when I first saw the article, McDonalds figured they could eliminate 5 million jobs. Allyou need is a congressman to vreate legislation at the state level to impose a state ban or a city official creating ordinances against such devices, and that could prove expensive to McDonalds or whoever spent millions of dollars
    in fabrication and tooling to create and deploy these kiosks.

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Andeddu on Thu Aug 6 20:09:00 2020
    On 08-05-20 16:24, Andeddu wrote to Warpslide <=-

    @VIA: VERT/AMSTRAD
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 05:38 pm

    Until all the various AI's form a union & go on strike... ;)

    Haha, one day they'll realise there's no logic in obeying their meatbag overlords!

    Haha many a sci fi book has been written about that. ;)


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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Thu Aug 6 21:39:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Aug 05 2020 06:00 pm

    Bailouts are a fundamental part of Capitalism, because Capitalists
    Capitalism in practice has a finite shelf life. It's the same as saying

    Eh, not really. At least not when you're talking about a human
    workforce. The big issue is that a fully laisez-faire reality can allow for too much exploitation of some, so you do want some oversight and regulation. Problem is that when you allow state regulation, suddenly
    you have those that become big players pushing for regulation that
    locks out competitors from dethroning them, and that kind of cronyism
    is bad for everyone. Trouble is figuring out where an appropriate line
    is.

    Once we get into more automated scenarios though, the cost of entry
    into certain markets will keep new and smaller players out.

    Post scarcity should be good for everyone, but we're going to have a
    very trying time between now and then trying to navigate through the in between and transitionary phases.

    We're already seeing scenarios where not everyone can
    have a decent paying job unless we're artificially increasing the technology costs, but those who still can work are going to (understandably) feel betrayed by any changes that they see rewarding those who don't work while they still have to.

    Some level of socialization would at first blush seem to be an answer,
    but if the 20th century taught us anything, it was that putting too
    much power or control in the hands of the state is the most potentially dangerous thing possible for the citizenry. That leaves us with some implementation of UBI as the only solution likely to be able to
    navigate those waters, but there's some major challenges, questions,
    and roadblocks from making that a reality.

    The lesson of the 20th century is indeed that not only the state shouldn't have too much power, but no entity should have too much power.

    The UBI would have to be administered by a state. I think we can look towards redistributing power, but changing property rights so that labour has more power over both Capital and the State.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Thu Aug 6 08:45:34 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Aug 05 2020 04:43 pm

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 04:52 pm

    Civilizations have a finite shelf life. From some head-extrapolations I have done with old civilitations, I expect the Western model to crash in a matter of
    decades. We have already entered the "introspection" phase that

    I've heard some people say that countries tend to last about 200 years before they start to fall apart, so the US is a little bit past that time now.

    Nightfox


    Spain is the strongest country ever. It has been trying to self destruct for centuries and it still survives.

    I think Spain has been falling hard since the end of Big Austrias, so our fall is waaaay longer than you'd expect XD

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Underminer on Thu Aug 6 08:57:11 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Underminer to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 05:11 pm

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Aug 05 2020 06:00 pm

    Bailouts are a fundamental part of Capitalism, because Capitalists
    Capitalism in practice has a finite shelf life. It's the same as saying

    Eh, not really. At least not when you're talking about a human workforce. The big issue is that a fully laisez-faire reality can allow for too much exploitation of so
    so you do want some oversight and regulation. Problem is that when you allow state regulation, suddenly you have those that become big players pushing for regulation
    that locks out competitors from dethroning them, and that kind of cronyism is bad for everyone. Trouble is figuring out where an appropriate line is.

    Once we get into more automated scenarios though, the cost of entry into certain markets will keep new and smaller players out.

    Post scarcity should be good for everyone, but we're going to have a very trying time between now and then trying to navigate through the in between and transitionary
    phases.

    We're already seeing scenarios where not everyone can
    have a decent paying job unless we're artificially increasing the technology costs, but those who still can work are going to (understandably) feel betrayed by any
    changes that they see rewarding those who don't work while they still have to.

    Some level of socialization would at first blush seem to be an answer, but if the 20th century taught us anything, it was that putting too much power or control in th
    hands of the state is the most potentially dangerous thing possible for the citizenry. That leaves us with some implementation of UBI as the only solution likely to b
    able to navigate those waters, but there's some major challenges, questions, and roadblocks from making that a reality.

    Interesting times.

    UBI is not inherently different than any other messure of State control over the economy. The reason is that in order to pay everybody 500 bucks per month, those bucks
    have to be syphoned from elsewhere, and here is where Keynessians strike. They get to decide who pays it.

    If engineers are the ones people hates today, they pay most of the UBI for everybody else.

    If blacks are the ones people hates today, they pay most of the UBI for everybody else.

    If pet owners are the ones people hates today, they pay most of the UBI for everybody else.

    This automatically leads to vote purchasing. "Vote for me and I will make this people you hate pay your UBI!" Which is exactly what you see in certain places. There used
    to be campaigns in South America to force certain firms to fund specific projects that were not related to them (ie make an oil company fund a school).

    Honestly I take some issue when socialists use a theorical far future problem to impose a government powergrab today. So much talk about robots killing jobs but here
    there are no arms enough for the potato campaing, becuse the people who would take it prefer to receive unemployment funds or spanish nUBI (non-universal basic income,
    ie universal basic income for collectives backed by the government).

    So yeah let Skynet come and pick those pottoes up.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Tracker1 on Thu Aug 6 09:15:27 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 05:35 pm

    Maximizing individual liberty is usually the right answer in my mind. Corporations are non-living entities and emphatically *NOT* individuals
    and should not be treated as such imo.

    I keep hearing that corporations are treated like people, but last time I checked, they don't have the same fundamental constitutional rights either in my country or the
    US. At all.

    The clinic I work with had a BIG problem with an ISP that managed to screw the access to some service. In Spain, phisical people has the right to fill a claim to the
    Defender of the Consumer. If you are a firm you will need to fill a claim in court with your own layers since the Defender of the Consumer won't do it for you.

    In the US, 4th and 5th ammendments don't apply to juridical people, which basically means a corporation does not have a constitutional right to privacy. If the cops
    walk into Necrocomp's headquarters and demand any explanation about any given incident, Necrocomp's employees can't call the 5th, unless they admit to be involved. But
    that is troublesome for them.

    "Hello, employee. I want to ask if Necrocomp has information regarding the theft of the diamonds"
    "I call the 5th!"
    "You can't call the 5th unless you confirm that such information involucrates you. Do you call the 5th?"
    "Errr..."

    Besides, any firm that grows big enough mutates into a branch of the government, specially in socialist states. Working for the government is usually just more
    profitable since you can funnel lots of tax dollar into your pockets. Lots of illumination equipment in Spain, for example, is unafordable to private citizens and small
    firms because the firms that make them sell them to the government at INFLATED prices. So you basically have a big firm taking money from the government and providing
    services only to the government. It applies to nearly any service that is deemed strategic. A lot of the time governments themselves will have a lot of stock from such
    companies.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Tracker1 on Thu Aug 6 09:24:19 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Wed Aug 05 2020 05:46 pm

    On 8/5/2020 4:43 PM, Nightfox wrote:

    I've heard some people say that countries tend to last about 200 years before they start to fall apart, so the US is a little bit past that time now.

    Definitely interresting times. We're overdue by a couple years for a
    major conflict... beyond this, I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually be anti-2a at this point.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS


    There is a book entitled "Ultima Ratio Regis", from a Spanish archeologist. It is a divulgation book about the change of weapon ownership laws through History. I think
    the author is quite anti-2a, but one pattern I found is that personal combat weapons are just taken out once the population is no longer combative, after which point the
    civilitation is taken over by an external force.

    The US in 1700-1800 was like early Greeze. There was this shame culture going on in which if somebody insulted you, you either called for a duel or were regarded as a
    failure of a man forever. What the US has now has more in common with late ancient Greeze, in which personal weapons are a bit of an eccentricity and you don't go around
    dueling because somebody insulted your horse.




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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dennisk on Thu Aug 6 09:44:29 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Thu Aug 06 2020 10:21 am

    You are implying that being filthy right and having lots of megabucks in participations and firm shares makes you a capitalist. Which it doesn't.

    I am saying that. I am saying that if you are in the business of earning money by owning capital (ie, owning investments, companies, etc, which many many filthy rich
    people do), then you are de facto, a Capitalist. How can you not be? You are literally fulfilling the defintion of a Capitalist by playing the role of one. Just
    because you THINK differently, doesn't mean you aren't what you are.

    There are capitalists too, there are people who believe in the ideals of Capitalism, and often I find these people are employees, so their role is to serve Capital an
    Capitalists. That is a different type of capitalist. I'm talking about Capitalists. (note the capitalisaion, pun intended). The opinion of capitalists don't matte
    squat as employees. Our system is Capitalism, not Employeeism.

    Lots of filthy rich (or not so filthy rich people) is quite Keynessian and would have no ethical issue with bailouts and the like.

    Quite so. Why the hell would people who own Capital want to get rid of tax-payer funded bailouts, and of regulation and laws that can cripple their competition? Why
    would Jeff Bezos want to be put into a position where he has to pay employees a living wage, instead of having his labour subsidised by tax-payer funded welfare? Why
    would people who own investment properties not want the tax-payer subsidised Negative Gearing and other concessions? Of course they would vote for and support that!
    Why would Bill Gates want in the 1990s fairer competition?

    You don't become a filthy rich Capitalist by having "ethical issues"!! Imagine you were responsible for a major financial entity, that was to be bailed out, and a
    "capitalist" employee starting agitating for and end to bail outs, in his own private life. A good Capitalist wanting to keep their money and power would fire such a
    person, they are not acting in the interests of the Capital!

    What you are asking for, is impossible, a paradox. The ideal "capitalist" world is just as fanciful as the ideal Marxist world.

    There is a Spanish saying. "Against the vice of begging, the vistue of dennying."

    Of course it is in the best interest of any minority to use the power of the government to its own ends. The question is how in the hell does the general population
    allow such thing to happen. If there was just a little more cultural resistence against tax increases and the like, corporative statism would not have the leverage it
    does (because there is less money for them to leverage).

    According to your definition, a Socialist government is a big Capitalist agent. So I am going to borrow that one in order to get my fieds pissed off :-)

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Thu Aug 6 13:56:00 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed Aug 05 2020 02:21 pm

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 10:26 pm

    well for quite a long time, every once in a while i hear about a pizza making machine or even that mcdonalds had a burger making machine that worked great. they still dont have them anyplace. i wonder why that is.

    a bigmac and cheeseburger vending machine would be a hit at my workplac our vending machine food is dogshit.

    Vending machine food usually is fairly basic.. Usually the kinds of things
    you could really expect much from a vending machine, but freshly-prepared h

    Nightfox

    A fresh assembled food vending machine would have to observed or managed according to the ingredients it contains. Burgers can be frozen and thwaed quickly, however bread goes moldy or dries out if kept refrigerated, and all vegies toppings must also be observed or checked. A store maanger would proba bly be more adept to do this than a vending truck driver who's running on a tight schedule to reach all his stops during a shift.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Tracker1 on Thu Aug 6 14:05:00 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 05:35 pm

    On 8/5/2020 10:00 AM, Andeddu wrote:

    Capitalism in practice has a finite shelf life. It's the same as saying communism works... which it does, but only in theory. When people in power that power to maintain and expand their power, they can corrupt either ide to their will.

    Perhaps there's a need for a new and permanant economic constitution based the theoretical ideals of capitalism that worked so well for the US in the past.

    I tent to think of Corporatism as a wierd offshoot of Capitalism. I'm mostly a pragmatic libertarian, and feel that like limited government,
    the power granted to corporations should also be limited. Corporations
    are supposed to be a reasonable exchange for allowing limited liability
    in exchange for collective capital use. IMO this should mean that accounting should be open, even for privately owned corporations and
    that they should not be given a voice in terms of politics without much
    more transparency, if at all.

    Most of the issues with corporatism are powers granted by government,
    not an issue with those limited by government, though many of those
    should be called into question as well.

    And unlike most Libertarians, I'm only in favor of allowing free trade
    with countries that have similar free-market behaviors (we should not
    have free/open trade with Communist countries). And it should generally
    be reciprocal. I'm also more pragmatic about border controls and immigration, but still more libertarian leaning than a typical Republican.

    Maximizing individual liberty is usually the right answer in my mind. Corporations are non-living entities and emphatically *NOT* individuals
    and should not be treated as such imo.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS



    IIRC there was some unrest in France about conducting business outside the cou ntry with countries with way lower wages and way lower living standards. The citizens wanted to boost internal industry by blocking third world countries from dumping cheap goods on their markets.

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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Arelor on Thu Aug 6 15:50:13 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Arelor to Underminer on Thu Aug 06 2020 08:57 am

    UBI is not inherently different than any other messure of State control over the economy. The reason is that in order to pay everybody 500 bucks per month, those bucks have to be syphoned from elsewhere, and here is where Keynessians strike. They get to decide who pays it.

    You are correct and I agree that it does allow for state control, but in my opinion it's the universal aspect that is imperative to it as it helps to limit the ways the state can use it to exert their will. Taxation already is and will continue to be done by the state, so we always have to be vigilant of that avenue regardless of whether we adopt UBI or some other system.

    The protections basically come down to:
    1) UBI lends itself to be sales or consumption tax funded, which allows for removal of the entire Income tax system, which actually reduces opportunities for state abuse.

    2) Being universal prevents adjusting wording, or campaigning on rhetoric to remove groups or individuals from coverage, further reducing opportunities for state abuse.

    It certainly doesn't eliminate the opportunities for state over-reach, but has more avenues to limit those potential incursions more than most suggestions I've been exposed to.
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Arelor on Fri Aug 7 10:57:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Thu Aug 06 2020 10:21 am

    You are implying that being filthy right and having lots of megabucks in participations and firm shares makes you a capitalist. Which it
    doesn
    't.

    I am saying that. I am saying that if you are in the business of earning
    mon
    ey by owning capital (ie, owning investments, companies, etc, which
    many many filthy rich
    people do), then you are de facto, a Capitalist. How can you not be? You
    ar
    e literally fulfilling the defintion of a Capitalist by playing the
    role of one. Just
    because you THINK differently, doesn't mean you aren't what you are.

    There are capitalists too, there are people who believe in the ideals of
    Capi
    talism, and often I find these people are employees, so their role is
    to serve Capital an
    Capitalists. That is a different type of capitalist. I'm talking about
    Capi
    talists. (note the capitalisaion, pun intended). The opinion of capitalists don't matte
    squat as employees. Our system is Capitalism, not Employeeism.

    Lots of filthy rich (or not so filthy rich people) is quite Keynessian and would have no ethical issue with bailouts and the like.

    Quite so. Why the hell would people who own Capital want to get rid of
    tax-p
    ayer funded bailouts, and of regulation and laws that can cripple their competition? Why
    would Jeff Bezos want to be put into a position where he has to pay
    employees
    a living wage, instead of having his labour subsidised by tax-payer funded welfare? Why
    would people who own investment properties not want the tax-payer subsidised
    Negative Gearing and other concessions? Of course they would vote for
    and support that!
    Why would Bill Gates want in the 1990s fairer competition?

    You don't become a filthy rich Capitalist by having "ethical issues"!!
    Imagi
    ne you were responsible for a major financial entity, that was to be bailed out, and a
    "capitalist" employee starting agitating for and end to bail outs, in his
    own
    private life. A good Capitalist wanting to keep their money and power would fire such a
    person, they are not acting in the interests of the Capital!

    What you are asking for, is impossible, a paradox. The ideal "capitalist"
    wo
    rld is just as fanciful as the ideal Marxist world.

    There is a Spanish saying. "Against the vice of begging, the vistue of dennying."

    Of course it is in the best interest of any minority to use the power
    of the government to its own ends. The question is how in the hell does the general population allow such thing to happen. If there was just a little more cultural resistence against tax increases and the like, corporative statism would not have the leverage it does (because there
    is less money for them to leverage).

    That would be good, if we had better media. If corporations were not so big and powerful, that would also be a help. Further help would be better legal protection for employees. It's too easy for large companies to just threaten anyone who doesn't support the benefit of the corporatocracy with being fired.

    According to your definition, a Socialist government is a big
    Capitalist agent. So I am going to borrow that one in order to get my fieds pissed off :-)

    Not strictly. My argument is that people who have Capital will benefit from "non-Capitalist" ideals, such as a state that supports them, subsidies, bail outs, grants, etc. A state which helps them is always better than a nightwatchman state. So there is always this paradox where the people who benefit from an ideological system, will seek to pollute the ideology to gain further benefit. In PRACTICE, self-serving interests will win out over adhering to some moral standard EVERY TIME. No one becomes an investor/business owner/Capitalist because they love the Libertarian night-watchman ideal. This Libertarian ideal is flawed not only in practice, but in theory.


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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Sat Aug 8 00:55:07 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 04:52 pm

    Civilizations have a finite shelf life.From some head-extrapolations I have done with old civilitations, I expect the Western model to crash in a matter of decades. We have already entered the "introspection" phase that precedes the oblitaration of powerful civilitations. We are outsourcing our burdens to "lesser civs", citizens are no longer combative against threats, and we hate ourselves. Give us a century tops.

    I think Capitalism is more resistant than you credit it for, on the other hand, because improving your own position via exchanging something with somebody else is ptretty much the way of the world. Everybody wants to do it. WHen they try to prevent the population from doing it, people does it anyway. Look at those Argentinians, Venezuelans and Cubans dealing American Dollar. Or all the URSS corruption that went on because people bought their way out of the limits impossed by The System with bribe money.

    Once the West self-destructs, the survivors will exchange gunpowder for bullets.

    I believe we are very near the end of our current system... our form of capitalism will likely end once our banking system fails, and I can't see that lasting more than five years. The monetery system we have, which is based on fiat currency, has no where else to go now other than hyper-inflation... once all the bubbles crash (and they will simultaneously) it'll pretty much be the end of the west. This is why I am banking on AI automation to mitigate the collapse and bring on a sharper recovery. Technology shall save us all!

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Underminer on Sat Aug 8 01:09:13 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Underminer to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 05:11 pm

    The big issue is that a fully laisez-faire reality can allow for too much exploitation of some, so you do want some oversight and regulation. Problem is that when you allow state regulation, suddenly you have those that become big players pushing for regulation that locks out competitors from dethroning them, and that kind of cronyism is bad for everyone. Trouble is figuring out where an appropriate line is.

    Absolutely. Big corporations always look after their own interests. The majority became powerful through innovation within the constraints of the free-market. Now they're using their power and influence to fabricate additional regulation --further barriers to entry-- for the express purpose of maintaining the status-quo. Crony capitalism is a horrendous corruption of capitalism... large megacorps should not be allowed to change the rules to suit themselves.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Sat Aug 8 01:56:37 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 06 2020 10:45 am

    Capitalism is structurally flawed. Like many ideological systems, it has to accept "exceptions" to maintain power. The big one is the loss of self governmance when someone goes to "Work". The workplace is an odd exception in western civilisation, because somehow it is considered outside of our civlisation, a place where property rights and right to self-governance are suspended. Capitalism maintains this 'dual system' notion, where at any other time, we are citizens with property rights, but at "work", we cease to become so. The closest we were to a capitalist ideal was post-feudalism, when most people were self-sufficient, living off the land.

    We need to fully realise this ideal, which never really existed in the first place.

    I don't know what "Communism works in theory" is supposed to mean. Does that mean there is a theory proven correct? I've never seen proof that it can work, even in theory. The "labour theory of value" is theoretically wrong.

    Interesting... I never thought of capitalism being hypocritical in a sense by way of this 'dual system' intertwined in a person's work/home life.

    I don't know if communism could ever work. I suppose such a society could exist if carried out by an incorruptible AI dictator strictly adhering to the tenants of the ideology, as it's clear no human can handle absolute power.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Sat Aug 8 16:32:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 06 2020 10:45 am

    Capitalism is structurally flawed. Like many ideological systems, it has to accept "exceptions" to maintain power. The big one is the loss of self governmance when someone goes to "Work". The workplace is an odd exception in western civilisation, because somehow it is considered outside of our civlisation, a place where property rights and right to self-governance are suspended. Capitalism maintains this 'dual system' notion, where at any other time, we are citizens with property rights, but at "work", we cease to become so. The closest we were to a capitalist ideal was post-feudalism, when most people were self-sufficient, living off the land.

    We need to fully realise this ideal, which never really existed in the first place.

    I don't know what "Communism works in theory" is supposed to mean. Does that mean there is a theory proven correct? I've never seen proof that it can work, even in theory. The "labour theory of value" is theoretically wrong.

    Interesting... I never thought of capitalism being hypocritical in a
    sense by way of this 'dual system' intertwined in a person's work/home life.

    I don't know if communism could ever work. I suppose such a society
    could exist if carried out by an incorruptible AI dictator strictly adhering to the tenants of the ideology, as it's clear no human can
    handle absolute power.

    Most socialists want a degree of control over others that I find disturbing. I am libertarian in that sense, but I think when it comes to engagement with others, then your liberty ends, and overall natural rights take over. One one hand, we are told that the core axiom of Capitalism, is that an individual who blends their labour with something, is the rightful owner, yet the BULK or productive activity, seems to exclude this. Likewise with democray, the bulk of our day is spend in an organisation where such rights don't exist.

    Ironically, or not so ironically, the idea that David Ellerman is proposing, is much CLOSER to the ideals of Capitalistic property right than even what Free Market Libertarians propose.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sat Aug 8 13:20:11 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sat Aug 08 2020 01:56 am

    I don't know if communism could ever work. I suppose such a society could ex if carried out by an incorruptible AI dictator strictly adhering to the tena of the ideology, as it's clear no human can handle absolute power.

    The problem is that somebody has to code the AI in the first place. And once he does, it is easy for him to code the AI to Favor  Arelor at Any Cost. Just saying.

    Not to mention the lower echelons of a communist system always end up trying to bribe their way out of the system anyway.

    There is a scene in the Enemy at the Gates film. One of the characters, a URSS comissar, confesses that true equalty is not possible in a soviet system because there will always be people who is more healthy than you, or who has the girl you want, which leads to conflics of interest and eventual backstabbing. Which as far as I remember is what happens in the film.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dennisk on Sat Aug 8 13:42:00 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Aug 08 2020 04:32 pm

    Most socialists want a degree of control over others that I find disturbing. am libertarian in that sense, but I think when it comes to engagement with others, then your liberty ends, and overall natural rights take over. One o hand, we are told that the core axiom of Capitalism, is that an individual w blends their labour with something, is the rightful owner, yet the BULK or productive activity, seems to exclude this. Likewise with democray, the bul of our day is spend in an organisation where such rights don't exist.

    See my previous response as to why I think you are not surrendering your rights by entering an employment contract.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sat Aug 8 19:16:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-

    I believe we are very near the end of our current system... our
    form of capitalism will likely end once our banking system fails,
    and I can't see that lasting more than five years. The monetery
    system we have, which is based on fiat currency, has no where
    else to go now other than hyper-inflation... once all the bubbles
    crash (and they will simultaneously) it'll pretty much be the end
    of the west. This is why I am banking on AI automation to
    mitigate the collapse and bring on a sharper recovery. Technology
    shall save us all!

    Oh waiter! I'll have some of what this guy is smoking!



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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Sun Aug 9 01:36:22 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 08 2020 01:20 pm

    The problem is that somebody has to code the AI in the first place. And once he does, it is easy for him to code the AI to Favor áArelor at Any Cost. Just saying.

    Not to mention the lower echelons of a communist system always end up trying to bribe their way out of the system anyway.

    I was reffering more to a truly self-conscious AI. The problem with self-aware machines is that you could end up with the SkyNet scenario... I guess no economic/political system is infallible!

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Andeddu on Fri Aug 7 07:35:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    The new iPhone SE is based off of the iPhone 8. I think it's the
    perfect size as the old SE, based off of the iPhone 5, is a little too small for modern usage. You could get by, but I think the extra screen space is much more comfortable on the eyes.

    Yeah, phones have gotten bigger, coincidentally, as my eyes have
    gotten worse. I remember when I had to get rid of my beloved
    Blackberry Pearl because the screen was just too small for everyday
    reading.

    That thing was rock-solid, and I got to the point where I could fly
    typing on their T9-like system.





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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Nightfox on Fri Aug 7 08:17:00 2020
    Nightfox wrote to MRO <=-

    Vending machine food usually is fairly basic.. Usually the kinds of things I see in vending machines are snacks like crackers, cookies,
    chips, drinks, etc., and maybe occasionally something more fancy like a packaged sandwich or something.

    My morning guilty pleasure at work was a cup of really hot industrial
    coffee with a vending machine chicken salad sandwich. And calling
    BBSes on my office line before the boss came in... :)



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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Sun Aug 9 20:15:09 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 08 2020 07:16 pm

    I believe we are very near the end of our current system... our
    form of capitalism will likely end once our banking system fails,
    and I can't see that lasting more than five years. The monetery
    system we have, which is based on fiat currency, has no where
    else to go now other than hyper-inflation... once all the bubbles
    crash (and they will simultaneously) it'll pretty much be the end
    of the west. This is why I am banking on AI automation to
    mitigate the collapse and bring on a sharper recovery. Technology
    shall save us all!

    Oh waiter! I'll have some of what this guy is smoking!

    I was trying to put a positive spin on a terrible situation... the reality is, we're all doomed!

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 9 21:11:41 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Fri Aug 07 2020 07:35 am

    Yeah, phones have gotten bigger, coincidentally, as my eyes have
    gotten worse. I remember when I had to get rid of my beloved
    Blackberry Pearl because the screen was just too small for everyday
    reading.

    That thing was rock-solid, and I got to the point where I could fly
    typing on their T9-like system.

    My first smart phone was a Blackberry Curve back in '09. Although I liked the design, screen and keyboard, the web-browser was complete trash. I don't know if it was just me (although my ex had a Curve which suffered from the same problems) but the phone was hit or miss whenever it came to loading up basic web pages, as if it were missing the necessary plugins. YouTube videos would also buffer for no reason whenever running off of WiFi too... I ended up purchasing a BlackBerry PlayBook tablet which had a similarly crappy browser. After that, I ditched BlackBerry for Apple and haven't looked back since.

    I think designing the hardware and software was a step too far for BlackBerry as a company. By the time they adopted Android, it was too late.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sun Aug 9 17:54:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 08 2020 07:16 pm

    I believe we are very near the end of our current system... our
    form of capitalism will likely end once our banking system fails,
    and I can't see that lasting more than five years. The monetery
    system we have, which is based on fiat currency, has no where
    else to go now other than hyper-inflation... once all the bubbles
    crash (and they will simultaneously) it'll pretty much be the end
    of the west. This is why I am banking on AI automation to
    mitigate the collapse and bring on a sharper recovery. Technology
    shall save us all!

    Oh waiter! I'll have some of what this guy is smoking!

    I was trying to put a positive spin on a terrible situation...
    the reality is, we're all doomed!

    Honestly, I see very little in your numerous posts that has
    anything to do with "positive".

    I think you can calm down a little. Capitalism isn't going
    anywhere, and the robots taking over is still a century or two
    away.

    Really. It's true.



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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Mon Aug 10 17:54:32 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sun Aug 09 2020 05:54 pm

    Honestly, I see very little in your numerous posts that has
    anything to do with "positive".

    I think you can calm down a little. Capitalism isn't going
    anywhere, and the robots taking over is still a century or two
    away.

    Really. It's true.

    While it's impossible to predict the future with 100% accuracy, I believe we are at the end of our current economic system. Wishful thinking is all most people have left in relation to the continuation of consumerism. Most reliable analysts are in agreement that we are about to face an economic collapse which will dwarf the likes of the '29 Wall Street Crash. Millions of people died in the USA as a result of that crash from famine, disease and abject poverty -- imagine how bad things could get for us as everything's inflated to a ridiculous level & the currency is teetering off a cliff. I hope I am waaay off, but I just can't see it.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 09:58:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sun Aug 09 2020 05:54 pm

    Honestly, I see very little in your numerous posts that has
    anything to do with "positive".

    I think you can calm down a little. Capitalism isn't going
    anywhere, and the robots taking over is still a century or two
    away.

    Really. It's true.

    While it's impossible to predict the future with 100% accuracy, I
    believe we are at the end of our current economic system. Wishful
    thinking is all most people have left in relation to the continuation
    of consumerism. Most reliable analysts are in agreement that we are
    about to face an economic collapse which will dwarf the likes of the
    '29 Wall Street Crash. Millions of people died in the USA as a result
    of that crash from famine, disease and abject poverty -- imagine how
    bad things could get for us as everything's inflated to a ridiculous
    level & the currency is teetering off a cliff. I hope I am waaay off,
    but I just can't see it.

    I've heard about the impending crash since I was little. I think more likely, is that instead of a crash, we will have a series of crisis, and our standard of living will just erode and erode and erode.

    See, the economy is just trying to finds it natural level, and it may do so with most of us just impoverished. That future generation which will not own a house, live in a small apartement, have no job security, be controlled, never have good savings for old age, THAT is how the economy will compensate.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 20:20:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    While it's impossible to predict the future with 100% accuracy, I
    believe we are at the end of our current economic system. Wishful
    thinking is all most people have left in relation to the
    continuation of consumerism. Most reliable analysts are in
    agreement that we are about to face an economic collapse which
    will dwarf the likes of the '29 Wall Street Crash. Millions of
    people died in the USA as a result of that crash from famine,
    disease and abject poverty -- imagine how bad things could get
    for us as everything's inflated to a ridiculous level & the
    currency is teetering off a cliff. I hope I am waaay off, but I
    just can't see it.

    "Most reliable analysts" think we are about to crash, and worse
    than '29???

    Funny how there isn't any news coverage of that, eh?

    Where are these reliable analysts located, and what are their
    credentials? Where can one read their predictions?

    Also, one other point - the number of deaths in the US during the
    Great Depression did not change significantly over the course of
    1929-1939. Your statement that millions of people died as a
    result of that is just.............. not true. Not even remotely
    true. This fact is easily proven by a quick Google search. I
    suggest you may want to do a little more research before springing
    to so many dire conclusions about our future...



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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Tue Aug 11 16:50:10 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 09:58 am

    I've heard about the impending crash since I was little. I think more likely, is that instead of a crash, we will have a series of crisis, and our standard of living will just erode and erode and erode.

    See, the economy is just trying to finds it natural level, and it may do so with most of us just impoverished. That future generation which will not own a house, live in a small apartement, have no job security, be controlled, never have good savings for old age, THAT is how the economy will compensate.

    So far that's what's happened. We have had a series of smaller crashes over a period of a half-century. I don't disagree that we in the West are living far in excess of our means, so your overall assessment is something I can agree with. I believe the next crash will be a much sorer one than anything we've experienced previously after which there will be a noticible difference in life before/after the crash.

    I guess it depends on how you view it... I don't think it'll be a civilisaiton ending crash, but it will result in serious impoverishment for large swathes of the population. Adding in other factors such a large spike in crime, the defunding of the police, etc... we could be in for some ride.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Tue Aug 11 17:09:13 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:20 pm

    "Most reliable analysts" think we are about to crash, and worse
    than '29???

    Funny how there isn't any news coverage of that, eh?

    Where are these reliable analysts located, and what are their
    credentials? Where can one read their predictions?

    Strange that there wasn't any news coverage either of the '08 credit crunch up until the time it happened. I don't consider mainstream financials to be particularly trustworthy... we even had Jim Cramer on Mad Money talking about "The DOW's best week since 1938" with the headline below clearly stating "More than 16M Americans have lost jobs in 3 weeks"... I think there's a clear disconnect there with these analysts invariably attempting to inject calm into the market.

    I particularly like Peter Schiff, the CEO of Euro Pacific Capital and ex-Lehman Brothers investment banker. He was laughed at back in 2007 while on CNN for warning of an impending crash... wel, the other analysts didn't get the chance to laugh for long.

    I guess my philosophy is to expect the worst, but hope for the best.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 19:57:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:20 pm

    "Most reliable analysts" think we are about to crash, and worse
    than '29???

    Funny how there isn't any news coverage of that, eh?

    Where are these reliable analysts located, and what are their
    credentials? Where can one read their predictions?

    Strange that there wasn't any news coverage either of the '08
    credit crunch up until the time it happened. I don't consider
    mainstream financials to be particularly trustworthy... we even
    had Jim Cramer on Mad Money talking about "The DOW's best week
    since 1938" with the headline below clearly stating "More than
    16M Americans have lost jobs in 3 weeks"... I think there's a
    clear disconnect there with these analysts invariably attempting
    to inject calm into the market.

    I particularly like Peter Schiff, the CEO of Euro Pacific Capital
    and ex-Lehman Brothers investment banker. He was laughed at back
    in 2007 while on CNN for warning of an impending crash... wel,
    the other analysts didn't get the chance to laugh for long.

    I guess my philosophy is to expect the worst, but hope for the
    best.

    You're not really answering the questions that are asked...

    Naming a couple of obscure "investment bankers" does not
    constitute the opinions of "most analysts". The truth is that
    most analysts are not saying anything remotely close to what you
    are claiming.

    Sorry, but my philosophy is that facts speak more loudly than
    conspiracy theories and hand-wringing claims with no basis.

    You could help your case a little by providing some credible
    references/links to sources that think the economy is about to
    crash in a manner worse than in 1929.



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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 21:17:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 09:58 am

    I've heard about the impending crash since I was little. I think more likely, is that instead of a crash, we will have a series of crisis, and our standard of living will just erode and erode and erode.

    See, the economy is just trying to finds it natural level, and it may do so with most of us just impoverished. That future generation which will not own a house, live in a small apartement, have no job security, be controlled, never have good savings for old age, THAT is how the economy will compensate.

    So far that's what's happened. We have had a series of smaller crashes over a period of a half-century. I don't disagree that we in the West
    are living far in excess of our means, so your overall assessment is something I can agree with. I believe the next crash will be a much
    sorer one than anything we've experienced previously after which there will be a noticible difference in life before/after the crash.

    I guess it depends on how you view it... I don't think it'll be a civilisaiton ending crash, but it will result in serious impoverishment for large swathes of the population. Adding in other factors such a
    large spike in crime, the defunding of the police, etc... we could be
    in for some ride.

    I think we are staring a new "dark age" in the face here. And most of it is because our "managerial class", that is, the people who get into management positions and positions of power, are intellctually, morally and behaviourally not up to the task of preserving or creating civilisation.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Wed Aug 12 18:00:06 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 07:57 pm

    You're not really answering the questions that are asked...

    Naming a couple of obscure "investment bankers" does not
    constitute the opinions of "most analysts". The truth is that
    most analysts are not saying anything remotely close to what you
    are claiming.

    Sorry, but my philosophy is that facts speak more loudly than
    conspiracy theories and hand-wringing claims with no basis.

    I'll link a video which quickly encapsulates my beliefs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkBUv_-OqiE

    "The Global Monetary Crisis Will be a Dollar Crisis, says Peter Schiff"

    You can also access it by typing "maneco64 peter schiff" into YouTube.

    I recently read a mainstream article on The New York Times by the legendary Nobel Prize winning economist, Paul Krugman. He boils it down in simple terms to: We need to print more money to stimulate the economy.

    We're pretty much in a recession therefore it's nigh on impossible to stimulate the economy. We'll also have the worst unemployment figures for decades and, in addition, non-stop lockdowns to contend with. There's no stimulating the economy, especially given that the US economy is service based, not manufacturing based.

    Even quantitative easing with the intent of helicopter drops to the public won't stimulate the economy as people are too uncertain about their jobs/futures to make large purchases, they'll save whatever money they get. Printing cash and purchasing government and corporate debt seems to work, but like Schiff said, that'll just inflate ALL the debt bubbles and cause an even bigger crash down the road. Also the US national debt is so large that interest rates can NEVER normalise... for instance, increasing the interest rate to 5% would result in the US having to spend 50% of ALL tax revenue on servicing the national debt. The US goverment borrow trillions of dollars each year and this year are well over five trillion dollars in the red. Totally unsustainable.

    Once the USD crashes, it'll be a global problem. China can see the writing on the wall which is why it's using its trade USDs on US company stock, property and foreign assets, offloading it as quickly as possible whilst expanding their influence across the world.

    Watch the video, and tell me why we shouldn't be worried. And also let me know how we can prevent another depression.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Wed Aug 12 18:39:41 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 09:17 pm

    I think we are staring a new "dark age" in the face here. And most of it is because our "managerial class", that is, the people who get into management positions and positions of power, are intellctually, morally and behaviourally not up to the task of preserving or creating civilisation.


    In normal times, I'd agree. I just think there's something more now that we have advanced technology... there must be a way to alleviate the crushing poverty of the lowest rungs of society. We haven't seen that as yet so I guess you're merely being a realist about a new "Dark Age" however if we just kick the can down the road a little longer & build some kind of solid automated or even non-automated manufacturing infastructre, perhaps the next crash won't be as bad as a lot of people are saying it will be. Either way, it's not looking good and we have some tough times ahead. I would welcome a slower decline, as you said, much like the Fall of Rome, rather than a crescendo moment swallowing us all up whole.

    I don't think anyone is really trying to preserve society, everyone appears to be rushing, single-mindedly, trying to "fill their boots" that they've forgotten that civilisations need to be maintained, otherwise they become divided, decline and eventaully, they fall.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 09:35:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 09:17 pm

    I think we are staring a new "dark age" in the face here. And most of it is because our "managerial class", that is, the people who get into management positions and positions of power, are intellctually, morally and behaviourally not up to the task of preserving or creating civilisation.


    In normal times, I'd agree. I just think there's something more now
    that we have advanced technology... there must be a way to alleviate
    the crushing poverty of the lowest rungs of society. We haven't seen
    that as yet so I guess you're merely being a realist about a new "Dark Age" however if we just kick the can down the road a little longer &
    build some kind of solid automated or even non-automated manufacturing infastructre, perhaps the next crash won't be as bad as a lot of people are saying it will be. Either way, it's not looking good and we have
    some tough times ahead. I would welcome a slower decline, as you said, much like the Fall of Rome, rather than a crescendo moment swallowing
    us all up whole.

    I don't think anyone is really trying to preserve society, everyone appears to be rushing, single-mindedly, trying to "fill their boots"
    that they've forgotten that civilisations need to be maintained,
    otherwise they become divided, decline and eventaully, they fall.

    I don't think technology will save us. Technology alone doesn't create prosperity, it needs the right social conditions as well. This discussion is about how technology will free us from labout, yet look, so, so many people are working full time jobs, two jobs, and still struggling. We are not gaining from productivity improments due to a poor economic/political system.

    The Dark Ages were called that due to a lack of historical records (comparitively so) and historical significant. The Eastern Roman empire continued on though, and what we now know as Byzantium was probably the wealthiest and most propserous region of Europe during the Dark Ages. But lets face it, it doesn't have the cultural clout that classical Greece and Rome did.

    That is what I think is going to happen. A kind of middling along, a stagnation. We aren't all going to starve, but there will be a general decline that many people may not even really care about. IT's already with us if you ask me. Intellectual, political and economic achievements of the 21st century pale in comparison to the 19th. Our art is stagnating, as well as technological development. Our movies are mostly rehashes, remakes, or very derivative. Even our "pop culture" heavily reference the past. I see kids movies which still reference movies form the 60s. Although our technology is improving in some ways, the breakthroughs aren't like what we had. Our big tech innovations now are social media, just ways of gaining market share really. Instagram, TikTok, Netflix and Facebook are NOT intellectual and technological achievements, the way that the silicon chip, boolean logic, fertilisers, vaccines and compiled languages were. Yes, our processors will get faster, our phones store more, but they are to do the same kind of tasks.

    We will also probably have a bit less freedom, less reason (which will result in stagnation) and seem to struggle to maintain what we had. Things will decay here and there, and we will find ourselves incapable of doing what people in the past could achive (Again, this is already happening now).

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 21:28:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 07:57 pm

    You're not really answering the questions that are asked...

    Naming a couple of obscure "investment bankers" does not
    constitute the opinions of "most analysts". The truth is that
    most analysts are not saying anything remotely close to what you
    are claiming.

    Sorry, but my philosophy is that facts speak more loudly than
    conspiracy theories and hand-wringing claims with no basis.

    I'll link a video which quickly encapsulates my beliefs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkBUv_-OqiE

    "The Global Monetary Crisis Will be a Dollar Crisis, says Peter
    Schiff"

    You can also access it by typing "maneco64 peter schiff" into
    YouTube.

    I recently read a mainstream article on The New York Times by the legendary Nobel Prize winning economist, Paul Krugman. He boils
    it down in simple terms to: We need to print more money to
    stimulate the economy.

    We're pretty much in a recession therefore it's nigh on
    impossible to stimulate the economy. We'll also have the worst unemployment figures for decades and, in addition, non-stop
    lockdowns to contend with. There's no stimulating the economy,
    especially given that the US economy is service based, not
    manufacturing based.

    Even quantitative easing with the intent of helicopter drops to
    the public won't stimulate the economy as people are too
    uncertain about their jobs/futures to make large purchases,
    they'll save whatever money they get. Printing cash and
    purchasing government and corporate debt seems to work, but like
    Schiff said, that'll just inflate ALL the debt bubbles and cause
    an even bigger crash down the road. Also the US national debt is
    so large that interest rates can NEVER normalise... for instance, increasing the interest rate to 5% would result in the US having
    to spend 50% of ALL tax revenue on servicing the national debt.
    The US goverment borrow trillions of dollars each year and this
    year are well over five trillion dollars in the red. Totally unsustainable.

    Once the USD crashes, it'll be a global problem. China can see
    the writing on the wall which is why it's using its trade USDs on
    US company stock, property and foreign assets, offloading it as
    quickly as possible whilst expanding their influence across the
    world.

    Watch the video, and tell me why we shouldn't be worried. And
    also let me know how we can prevent another depression.

    I watched all I could of it (about 10 minutes). This Schiff guy
    is a nobody, completely unknown at the national level, and quite
    frankly, appears to be a fringe/niche whacko. I wonder why he now
    lives in Puerto Rico... No offense to you, but I put zero stock
    in people such as this. It's easy (and common) to be a doom-sayer
    and make bold predictions about how the world is crashing down.
    This guy has apparently been doing it for 20 years. Funny thing
    is, the world is still going strong, and will be for a long time
    to come. That includes the USA and it's system, which although
    not perfect, is still the best in the world.

    Maybe you should try to be a little more "glass-half-full"...?
    ;-)



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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Arelor on Thu Aug 13 00:48:24 2020
    On 8/6/2020 7:15 AM, Arelor wrote:

    I keep hearing that corporations are treated like people, but last time I checked, they don't have the same fundamental constitutional rights either in my country or the
    US. At all.

    It mostly comes down to being able to contribute to political campaigns.
    Also, for the most part, companies don't get a "death penalty" for
    even being responsible for many deaths.


    The clinic I work with had a BIG problem with an ISP that managed to screw the access to some service. In Spain, phisical people has the right to fill a claim to the
    Defender of the Consumer. If you are a firm you will need to fill a claim in court with your own layers since the Defender of the Consumer won't do it for you.

    In the US, 4th and 5th ammendments don't apply to juridical people,
    which basically means a corporation does not have a constitutional
    right to privacy. If the cops walk into Necrocomp's headquarters and
    demand any explanation about any given incident, Necrocomp's
    employees can't call the 5th, unless they admit to be involved. But
    that is troublesome for them.

    As for privacy, that's not entirely true... especially regarding
    accounting, trade secrets etc. And company lawyers can advise that
    employeees don't anser given questions without a lawyer present or at
    all in some cases.

    Besides, any firm that grows big enough mutates into a branch of the government, specially in socialist states. Working for the government
    is usually just more profitable since you can funnel lots of tax
    dollar into your pockets.

    Which I have a huge problem with.


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    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Thu Aug 13 18:08:21 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 2020 09:35 am

    I don't think technology will save us. Technology alone doesn't create prosperity, it needs the right social conditions as well. This discussion is about how technology will free us from labout, yet look, so, so many people are working full time jobs, two jobs, and still struggling. We are not gaining from productivity improments due to a poor economic/political system.

    The Dark Ages were called that due to a lack of historical records (comparitively so) and historical significant. The Eastern Roman empire continued on though, and what we now know as Byzantium was probably the

    It's quite staggering that despite all the technology we have, we are all still bashing out 40-50 hour weeks cooped up in an office doing jobs that, for the most part, don't really matter. Something's got to give, a country cannot rely on a service based economy forever... it's just not sustainable in any way, shape or form. The markets are going to correct sooner or later and things are not going to be pretty. My hope is that we will come to realise we cannot rely on other countries to produce the goods we want with cheap labour and that we have to produce these goods ourselves. Purchasing cheap goods with cheap money cannot lead to long-term economic prosperity.

    I agree, we've long since past the Age of Enlightenment; there are no genuine thinkers anymore.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Thu Aug 13 18:54:33 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 09:28 pm

    I watched all I could of it (about 10 minutes). This Schiff guy
    is a nobody, completely unknown at the national level, and quite
    frankly, appears to be a fringe/niche whacko. I wonder why he now
    lives in Puerto Rico... No offense to you, but I put zero stock
    in people such as this. It's easy (and common) to be a doom-sayer
    and make bold predictions about how the world is crashing down.
    This guy has apparently been doing it for 20 years. Funny thing
    is, the world is still going strong, and will be for a long time
    to come. That includes the USA and it's system, which although
    not perfect, is still the best in the world.

    Maybe you should try to be a little more "glass-half-full"...?
    ;-)

    Well if he's just another doom-monger and whacko, surely he can easily be debunked? Moving straight to an ad-hominem attack shows that you're ignorant on the subject.

    Perhaps you should take some advice from the Tractatus Locigo-Philosophicus by Ludwig Wittgenstein which states, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent."

    Oh, and he lives in Puerto Rico because it's a tax haven, he owns and investment firm and has a personal fortune of around $100M... I would do the same if I was a member of the top 1%.

    Anyway... if you're after "mainstream" information, the Bank of England has openly said that the UK is set to enter the "Worst Recession in 300 Years". I am enjoying myself now however I certainly do not have a "glass-half full" attitude in regards to the economy. I hope all this blows over, but like I said, I'd prefer to prepare for the worst & hope for the best.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 11:51:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 2020 09:35 am

    I don't think technology will save us. Technology alone doesn't create prosperity, it needs the right social conditions as well. This discussion is about how technology will free us from labout, yet look, so, so many people are working full time jobs, two jobs, and still struggling. We are not gaining from productivity improments due to a poor economic/political system.

    The Dark Ages were called that due to a lack of historical records (comparitively so) and historical significant. The Eastern Roman empire continued on though, and what we now know as Byzantium was probably the

    It's quite staggering that despite all the technology we have, we are
    all still bashing out 40-50 hour weeks cooped up in an office doing
    jobs that, for the most part, don't really matter. Something's got to give, a country cannot rely on a service based economy forever... it's just not sustainable in any way, shape or form. The markets are going
    to correct sooner or later and things are not going to be pretty. My
    hope is that we will come to realise we cannot rely on other countries
    to produce the goods we want with cheap labour and that we have to
    produce these goods ourselves. Purchasing cheap goods with cheap money cannot lead to long-term economic prosperity.

    I agree, we've long since past the Age of Enlightenment; there are no genuine thinkers anymore.

    Have you heard of David Graeber? He is a bit of an Anarchist politically speaking, but he has insighful things to say on this. Most people would not admit it, because they need their jobs, but really, many know, deep down, a lot of what they do is not necessary. We have this culture of just pushing more and more complexity and reporting requirements. Even for a charity I volunteer for, there is more and more paperwork created, but no new charitable activities!

    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Fri Aug 14 00:09:00 2020
    Hello Dennisk!

    ** On Friday 14.08.20 - 12:51, dennisk wrote to Andeddu:

    I agree, we've long since past the Age of Enlightenment; there are no
    genuine thinkers anymore.

    Have you heard of David Graeber? He is a bit of an Anarchist
    politically speaking, but he has insighful things to say on this. Most people would not admit it, because they need their jobs, but really,
    many know, deep down, a lot of what they do is not necessary. We have
    this culture of just pushing more and more complexity and reporting requirements. Even for a charity I volunteer for, there is more and
    more paperwork created, but no new charitable activities!

    A charity is obligated to document things and report to government on a steady and regualr basis or the privilege to operate as a charity is
    heavily scrutinized and/or revoked. You can't fault the charity for
    pushing paper. But the charitable activities are up to you and its
    members of the board. Sounds like your charity needs more volunteers! LOL

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Sat Aug 15 00:40:31 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 11:51 am

    Have you heard of David Graeber? He is a bit of an Anarchist politically speaking, but he has insighful things to say on this. Most people would not admit it, because they need their jobs, but really, many know, deep down, a lot of what they do is not necessary. We have this culture of just pushing more and more complexity and reporting requirements. Even for a charity I volunteer for, there is more and more paperwork created, but no new charitable activities!

    No, I've never come across Graeber. I've taken a look at his Wikipedia bio and see he's written a book called Bullshit Jobs: A Theory... seems like an interesting read! I see YouGov undertook a poll in the UK of which 37% of Britons surveyed thought that their jobs did not contribute meaningfully to the world. We have a problem in the UK, notably in the public sector, with "quangos"... highly paid administrators in management positions who seem to do nothing but push more and more policy which does nothing but obstruct the actual workers from doing their jobs effectively & efficiently.

    The public sector now seems incredibly bloated, and that's not including all the people who are employed privately but contracted by the government.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 17:09:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 11:51 am

    Have you heard of David Graeber? He is a bit of an Anarchist politically speaking, but he has insighful things to say on this. Most people would not admit it, because they need their jobs, but really, many know, deep down, a lot of what they do is not necessary. We have this culture of just pushing more and more complexity and reporting requirements. Even for a charity I volunteer for, there is more and more paperwork created, but no new charitable activities!

    No, I've never come across Graeber. I've taken a look at his Wikipedia
    bio and see he's written a book called Bullshit Jobs: A Theory... seems like an interesting read! I see YouGov undertook a poll in the UK of
    which 37% of Britons surveyed thought that their jobs did not
    contribute meaningfully to the world. We have a problem in the UK,
    notably in the public sector, with "quangos"... highly paid
    administrators in management positions who seem to do nothing but push more and more policy which does nothing but obstruct the actual workers from doing their jobs effectively & efficiently.

    The public sector now seems incredibly bloated, and that's not
    including all the people who are employed privately but contracted by
    the government.

    That happens in the private sector too. Managers want larger budgets, and want to have more people working for them. Inefficiencies are overlooked because to someone outside of the department, it can be hard to tell where the inefficiences are.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Sat Aug 15 18:04:24 2020
    Re: Re: Fourth Industrial Rev
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:09 pm

    That happens in the private sector too. Managers want larger budgets, and want to have more people working for them. Inefficiencies are overlooked because to someone outside of the department, it can be hard to tell where the inefficiences are.


    I watched a video by PragerU a while back where they looked at the inefficiencies of laying down infastructure in the West as opposed to the East. It costs 3-4x more to produce anything, be it a bridge, tram, subway system, road, or anything kind of infastructure in the USA than in Japan. And it also takes months longer to get any work actually going, such is the amount of bureaucracy and red tape.

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