the BBS Xchange
the BBS Xchange

  • Women in Linux

    From Hylian@VERT to All on Mon Oct 13 11:53:55 2014
    I decided to write a little article on why it seems there are so few women in the linux/it world.

    My eyes where opened to the fact that a lot of advertising makes out women to either be sex toys or simpletons.

    There are some other interesting factors I cover, but I think the advertising angle is at the heart of this issue.

    It's poisoned our minds.

    Women in Linux, why so few? http://dennygoot.blogspot.com/2014/10/women-in-linux-why-so-few.html

    So what do you fine people think?
    -Denny

    Denny's Computers - Not for profit computer repair - dpccom.blogspot.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ telnet://vert.synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Hylian on Mon Oct 13 21:24:04 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Hylian to All on Mon Oct 13 2014 11:53:55

    I decided to write a little article on why it seems there are so few
    women in the linux/it world.

    Women in Linux, why so few? http://dennygoot.blogspot.com/2014/10/women-in-linux-why-so-few.html

    So what do you fine people think?

    I've often wondered about this myself. The most logical thing I can think of is that it's simply cultural. The reason I say that is because there are other countries, such as India, who are turning out a vast number of engineers (including software engineers and other computer-related engineers), many of which are women. I work at a large tech company, and what I've observed is that there are women engineers there, but few of them seem to be from the US. Most of the women engineers there are from countries such as India, China, and other parts of Asia. I think there are a couple factors in the US that make women choose not to go into an IT/engineering field:
    - There are so many men going into IT fields that women might feel isolated, thus making it a self-perpetuating cycle
    - There is (IMO) an image (maybe a sterotype?) of women as having more social, nurturing traits, so women might feel some social pressure to go into fields where those traits apply more aptly. I think IT fields still have a slightly nerdy image, where people who work in IT are stereotypically introverted, and women might not want to risk having that stereotype put on them.

    While thinking about this recently, I was curious why there seem to be so many engineers from India working in various IT fields. I found some things online that say that India has a strong engineering culture, and many students in India feel pressured by their parents and society to go into an engineering or medical field - So much so that India is starting to significantly lack workers going into other needed fields. A couple articles I found (the first link has been shortened to easily fit into less than 80 characters): http://bit.ly/1vpkvaR http://thenextweb.com/in/2011/05/08/why-there-so-many-engineers-in-india/

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion BBS - digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Hylian@VERT to Nightfox on Mon Oct 13 22:06:37 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Hylian to All on Mon Oct 13 2014 11:53:55

    I decided to write a little article on why it seems there are so few women in the linux/it world.

    Women in Linux, why so few? http://dennygoot.blogspot.com/2014/10/women-in-linux-why-so-few.html

    So what do you fine people think?

    I've often wondered about this myself. The most logical thing I can think of is that it's simply cultural. The reason I say that is because there
    are other countries, such as India, who are turning out a vast number of engineers (including software engineers and other computer-related engineers), many of which are women. I work at a large tech company, and what I've observed is that there are women engineers there, but few of them seem to be from the US. Most of the women engineers there are from
    countries such as India, China, and other parts of Asia. I think there are a couple factors in the US that make women choose not to go into an IT/engineering field:
    - There are so many men going into IT fields that women might feel
    isolated, thus making it a self-perpetuating cycle
    - There is (IMO) an image (maybe a sterotype?) of women as having more social, nurturing traits, so women might feel some social pressure to go into fields where those traits apply more aptly. I think IT fields still have a slightly nerdy image, where people who work in IT are
    stereotypically introverted, and women might not want to risk having that stereotype put on them.

    While thinking about this recently, I was curious why there seem to be so many engineers from India working in various IT fields. I found some
    things online that say that India has a strong engineering culture, and
    many students in India feel pressured by their parents and society to go into an engineering or medical field - So much so that India is starting to significantly lack workers going into other needed fields. A couple articles I found (the first link has been shortened to easily fit into less than 80 characters): http://bit.ly/1vpkvaR http://thenextweb.com/in/2011/05/08/why-there-so-many-engineers-in-india/

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion BBS - digitaldistortionbbs.com

    You are very right, Nightfox. I dug up direct evidence that a big portion of
    it is stereotyped responses.

    The advertising industry is to blame for a large portion of that, as I brought out in my article.

    It opened my eyes... It happens all the time, but I didn't realize it.

    It's amazing what we don't see because it's been around for so long that our minds just ignore it.

    -Denny

    Denny's Computers - Not for profit computer repair - dpccom.blogspot.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ telnet://vert.synchro.net
  • From Crystal Chandelier@VERT/CRYSTAL to Nightfox on Tue Oct 14 09:56:00 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Nightfox to Hylian on Mon Oct 13 2014 10:24 pm

    - There is (IMO) an image (maybe a sterotype?) of women as having more socia nurturing traits, so women might feel some social pressure to go into fields where those traits apply more aptly. I think IT fields still have a slightl nerdy image, where people who work in IT are stereotypically introverted, an women might not want to risk having that stereotype put on them.
    I've been a woman in engineering most of my professional life. I can assure you that I am not alone, although the field is largely male dominated. I can't speak for IT that much, though. Most of my exposure to it is in the support side which seems to be more technician than professional in nature.



    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ << Crystal Aerie >> Va, USA Telnet://crystal-aerie.com
  • From Mro@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tue Oct 14 15:35:53 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Nightfox to Hylian on Mon Oct 13 2014 09:24 pm

    I decided to write a little article on why it seems there are so few women in the linux/it world.

    Women in Linux, why so few?
    So what do you fine people think?

    I've often wondered about this myself. The most logical thing I can think of is that it's simply cultural. The reason I say that is because there


    you might have noticed there's a lot of info out recently about women vs men and how much money they make.

    women are just different and pick different types of jobs than men, and they also choose less paying jobs in some cases.

    if you see a woman that's a computer expert, there's a good chance she used to be a he :D i know a few of those.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Mro@VERT/BBSESINF to Hylian on Tue Oct 14 15:37:36 2014
    Re: Re: Women in Linux
    By: Hylian to Nightfox on Mon Oct 13 2014 10:06 pm

    You are very right, Nightfox. I dug up direct evidence that a big portion
    of it is stereotyped responses.

    The advertising industry is to blame for a large portion of that, as I brought out in my article.



    there's truth to all sterotypes, though. if there wasnt, they wouldnt last long.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Khelair@VERT/TINFOIL to Crystal Chandelier on Tue Oct 14 13:08:56 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Crystal Chandelier to Nightfox on Tue Oct 14 2014 09:56:00

    I've been a woman in engineering most of my professional life. I can assure you that I am not alone, although the field is largely male dominated. I ca speak for IT that much, though. Most of my exposure to it is in the support side which seems to be more technician than professional in nature.

    I'm pretty sure that it exists powerfully in IT, as well. I haven't worked in the industry in a major area yet, so I haven't had a relative sample, but I've got friends in Portland that I know well enough to know that their fields as software developers, devops, and sysadmins, are usually above 85% male. I've heard a few of them mentioning that they think it's more because of the way the personalities [of most of the males] attracted to IT are really sexist.
    From what I saw where I last worked professionally (in North Dakota), it holds true, though it's a very small sample, as I mentioned.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Tinfoil Tetrahedron BBS telnet or ssh -p 2222 to tinfoil.synchro.net
  • From Gryphon@VERT/CYBERIA to Khelair on Wed Oct 15 10:23:00 2014
    On 10/14/14, Khelair said the following...

    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Crystal Chandelier to Nightfox on Tue Oct 14 2014 09:56:00

    I've been a woman in engineering mostof my professional life. I can as you that I am not alone, although the field is largely male dominated. speakfor IT that much, though. Most of my exposure to it is in the sup side which seems to be more technician than professional in nature.

    I'm pretty sure that it exists powerfully in IT, as well. I haven't worked in the industry in a major area yet, so I haven't had a relative sample, but I've got friends in Portland that I know well enough to know that their fields as software developers, devops, and sysadmins, are usually above 85% male. I've heard a few of them mentioning that they think it'smore because of the way the personalities [of most of the
    males] attracted to IT are really sexist. From what I saw where Ilast worked professionally (in North Dakota), it holds true, though it's a
    very small sample, as I mentioned.

    I've worked in the IT field for 20 years. The boss for my first IT job was a woman. My boss now is a woman. I've had women as bosses for half my IT career. Each of those women started as a techie, and moved up to managment roles. In my position now, of my 5-person group, 3 of them are women. They are also the ones that are just about to retire, so they've been in the
    field, for this company for a long time too.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.10 A52 (Linux)
    * Origin: Cyberia BBS | Cyberia.Darktech.Org | Kingwood, TX
  • From Crystal Chandelier@VERT/CRYSTAL to Khelair on Wed Oct 15 14:34:00 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Khelair to Crystal Chandelier on Tue Oct 14 2014 02:08 pm

    I'm pretty sure that it exists powerfully in IT, as well. I haven't wor in the industry in a major area yet, so I haven't had a relative sample, but I've got friends in Portland that I know well enough to know that their fiel as software developers, devops, and sysadmins, are usually above 85% male. I've heard a few of them mentioning that they think it's more because of the way the personalities [of most of the males] attracted to IT are really sexi
    From what I saw where I last worked professionally (in North Dakota), it holds true, though it's a very small sample, as I mentioned.

    It does. I think your 85% figure is probably correct, but when I first started out, my employer was hiring math majors for training as programmers. After a while, they sought out music majors because it seemed to be a better fit. In any case, that resulted in a larger percentage of women in programming.

    I also forgot to mention that my daughter is an electrical-computer engineer working in engineering but she also has a law degree.



    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ << Crystal Aerie >> Va, USA Telnet://crystal-aerie.com
  • From Khelair@VERT/TINFOIL to Gryphon on Wed Oct 15 12:50:33 2014
    Re: Re: Women in Linux
    By: Gryphon to Khelair on Wed Oct 15 2014 10:23:00

    I've worked in the IT field for 20 years. The boss for my first IT job was woman. My boss now is a woman. I've had women as bosses for half my IT career. Each of those women started as a techie, and moved up to managment roles. In my position now, of my 5-person group, 3 of them are women. They are also the ones that are just about to retire, so they've been in the field, for this company for a long time too.

    That's pretty awesome. I'm glad that the bits I've heard about have been misrepresenting the whole, if that holds true throughout. I'd much rather work in a place that has something closer to an average breakdown, to keep the alpha-nerd testosterone fueled chest-thumping to a minimum, if nothing else.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Tinfoil Tetrahedron BBS telnet or ssh -p 2222 to tinfoil.synchro.net
  • From Gryphon@VERT/CYBERIA to Khelair on Thu Oct 16 08:33:00 2014
    On 10/15/14, Khelair said the following...

    Re: Re: Women in Linux
    By: Gryphon to Khelair on Wed Oct 15 2014 10:23:00

    I've worked in the IT field for 20 years. The boss for my first IT job woman. My boss now is a woman. I've had women as bosses for half my I career. Each of those women started as a techie, and moved up to manag roles. In my position now, of my 5-person group, 3 of them are women. are also the ones that are just about to retire, so they've been in the field, for this company for a long timetoo.

    That's pretty awesome. I'm glad that the bits I've heard about have been misrepresenting the whole, if that holds true throughout. I'd much rather work in a place that has something closer to an average
    breakdown, to keep the alpha-nerd testosterone fueled chest-thumping to
    a minimum, if nothing else.

    Having said all that, I will also have to say that, Yes, the IT field is dominated by men. It's true that there are some women in the field, but the percentage is nowhere near 50%. I guess that what I was seeing is that while there are women in the field, they tend to gravitate to more management positions, rather than purely technical positions.

    Keep in mind, that with any IT position, the technical aspect is only about 50%-80% of the job. There is still a bunch of reporting, documenting, communicating, meetings, change-control meetings and reports, etc. While
    many women may start out in technical roles, it just doesn't phase me anymore when I find that the one woman in the group has moved up to available management, (i.e. non-technical) postitions.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.10 A52 (Linux)
    * Origin: Cyberia BBS | Cyberia.Darktech.Org | Kingwood, TX
  • From Mark Hofmann@VERT/TCP to Gryphon on Thu Oct 16 16:41:12 2014
    I've worked in the IT field for 20 years. The boss for my first IT job was
    a woman. My boss now is a woman. I've had women as bosses for half my IT career. Each of those women started as a techie, and moved up to managment roles. In my position now, of my 5-person group, 3 of them are women. They are also the ones that are just about to retire, so they've been in the field, for this company for a long time too.

    I have been working in the IT field for 27 years now (hard to believe it has been that long). I have noticed that as far as women in IT, it also depends on
    the type of business. IT is one of those few fields that can exist in practically any industry.

    Over the course of my career, I have seen the most women in IT in the medical field. There are more women than men in the medical field as a whole. In the "technical side" of the house, I have only seen a handful of women over the years. They exist, but not nearly as many as men. It seems there are more women in the application side of IT vs technical.

    All industies in IT over my career had male CIOs except for healthcare. In healthcare, they are mostly female. That's why I say it seems to depend on the
    industry.

    - Mark

    --- WWIVToss v.1.50
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (33:1/3.0)
    ■ Synchronet ■ curmudge.hopto.org
  • From Khelair@VERT/TINFOIL to Crystal Chandelier on Thu Oct 16 20:15:46 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Crystal Chandelier to Khelair on Wed Oct 15 2014 14:34:00

    It does. I think your 85% figure is probably correct, but when I first started out, my employer was hiring math majors for training as programmers. After a while, they sought out music majors because it seemed to be a better fit. In any case, that resulted in a larger percentage of women in programming.

    Interestingly enough, the one woman that I know here in Portland, now, who is into Programming, broke into it from an unrelated field, as well. I think that anything that breaks up the status quo is a good idea. She's good at what she does, too. Male dominated areas, as far as I've seen, descend into alpha-male chest thumping crap waaaaaay too predictably, a lot like the military and government, if I may be so bold.

    I also forgot to mention that my daughter is an electrical-computer engineer working in engineering but she also has a law degree.

    God that's awesome. Electrical engineering on its own is utterly amazing. Law on top of it. Kudos. Makes me wish I were not such a mere mortal. ;)

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Tinfoil Tetrahedron BBS telnet or ssh -p 2222 to tinfoil.synchro.net
  • From Froggyme@VERT/LILLYPAD to Nightfox on Fri Oct 17 01:01:49 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Nightfox to Hylian on Mon Oct 13 2014 09:24 pm

    I've often wondered about this myself. The most logical thing I can think of is that it's simply cultural. The reason I say that is because there are other countries, such as India, who are turning out a vast number of engineers (including software engineers and other computer-related engineers), many of which are women. I work at a large tech company, and what I've observed is that there are women engineers there, but few of them seem to be from the US. Most of the women engineers there are from

    Yeah, I know a few women with computer science and computer engineering backgrouds, and they're all Indian. They're really cute too :)

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Sent from The Lillypad BBS - lillypad.synchro.net:2323
  • From Crystal Chandelier@VERT/CRYSTAL to Khelair on Fri Oct 17 14:11:00 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Khelair to Crystal Chandelier on Thu Oct 16 2014 09:15 pm

    Interestingly enough, the one woman that I know here in Portland, now, who into Programming, broke into it from an unrelated field, as well. I think t anything that breaks up the status quo is a good idea. She's good at what s does, too. Male dominated areas, as far as I've seen, descend into alpha-ma chest thumping crap waaaaaay too predictably, a lot like the military and government, if I may be so bold.

    I work in male dominated areas. I guess most engineers do, but I have noticed changes over the years. Part of it might be my aging, but I rarely get confused with support staff anymore. Even though I work for a defense contractor, there are many highly placed women. The stigma is not what it used to be.

    I also forgot to mention that my daughter is an electrical-computer engineer working in engineering but she also has a law degree.

    God that's awesome. Electrical engineering on its own is utterly amazing. Law on top of it. Kudos. Makes me wish I were not such a mere mortal. ;)

    I have three daughters and she is the youngest but expressed aptitude and interest in science from a very early age. I recall explaining a bit of ballistics to her older daughters (probably around 11 or 12 years old), but they just didn't quite understand. The young one who was probably only 4 or 5 seemed to just naturally understand. She's been that way ever since.


    "3 million years in space, nothing! Then 5 suddenly show up!" * Holly "...death awaits you all with big and nasty pointy teeth."
    "A Tagline? What's that, and are we taxing it?" -- Bill Clinton
    "All constants are variables." -- Murphy's Law of Mathematics
    "All men are ignorant, just in different fields." -- Einstein
    "Amanda Hugginkiss? Why can't I find Amanda Hugginkiss?" -- Moe
    "And we'll have fun, fun, fun..." What? A moderator? Never mind.
    "Aw, mom, you act like I'm not even wearing a bungee cord!"
    "Bad things go away faster if you whine about them." -- Jon-Eric Chamness

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ << Crystal Aerie >> Va, USA Telnet://crystal-aerie.com
  • From Khelair@VERT/TINFOIL to Crystal Chandelier on Sat Oct 18 09:59:37 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Crystal Chandelier to Khelair on Fri Oct 17 2014 14:11:00

    I work in male dominated areas. I guess most engineers do, but I have noticed changes over the years. Part of it might be my aging, but I rarely get confused with support staff anymore. Even though I work for a defense contractor, there are many highly placed women. The stigma is not what it used to be.

    That's good to know. I'm looking forward very much to getting back into the industry. Plus, I'm in a much more progressive area than the upper midwest right now, so I'm hoping to see a bit of this difference than you're speaking of, albeit outside of the defense industry. I tried to get into some defense related fields for awhile, but my whistleblowing seems to have lodged that door permanently shut. ;) To think that I wanted to go CIA for a long time while I was still in the military. *grin* I'm glad I didn't. Those secrets would've held a little more repercussion than just getting blackballed by defense contractors and put on the lists.

    I have three daughters and she is the youngest but expressed aptitude and interest in science from a very early age. I recall explaining a bit of ballistics to her older daughters (probably around 11 or 12 years old), but they just didn't quite understand. The young one who was probably only 4 or 5 seemed to just naturally understand. She's been that way ever since.

    It's amazing how much the gene mixing in each random set and nurturing differences can change things, isn't it? I was expecting a set of aptitudes in my son that I've found were unrealistic, but he's got many of his own areas where he wants to pursue and blows me away with his inherent skills. I'm very much looking forward to seeing him through on his particular talents and goals. Only problem right now is that he's a little bit more focused on video games than I feel is healthy... This is a bit hypocritical, coming from me, of course, given my youth. I know what some of the alienation did to me, though. He never used to focus on them so much, but moving 4 times (uprooting school districts each time, as well) in one year really rocked his world. He wasn't left with much, at least until enough time had passed for him to make new friends. And this, much more urban, setting, is seeing new friends that he can do things with added to his circle much more slowly.
    Best wishes.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Tinfoil Tetrahedron BBS telnet or ssh -p 2222 to tinfoil.synchro.net
  • From Crystal Chandelier@VERT/CRYSTAL to Khelair on Sun Oct 19 16:26:00 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Khelair to Crystal Chandelier on Sat Oct 18 2014 10:59 am

    It's amazing how much the gene mixing in each random set and nurturing differences can change things, isn't it? I was expecting a set of aptitudes my son that I've found were unrealistic, but he's got many of his own areas where he wants to pursue and blows me away with his inherent skills. I'm ve much looking forward to seeing him through on his particular talents and goa Only problem right now is that he's a little bit more focused on video games than I feel is healthy... This is a bit hypocritical, coming from me, of course, given my youth. I know what some of the alienation did to me, thoug He never used to focus on them so much, but moving 4 times (uprooting school districts each time, as well) in one year really rocked his world. He wasn' left with much, at least until enough time had passed for him to make new friends. And this, much more urban, setting, is seeing new friends that he do things with added to his circle much more slowly.

    We all have a tendancy to find explanations (i.e. excuses). We all have challenges but most things that have a negative influence also have a positive.
    Video games hand-eye coordination, concentration, persistence. Moving opening mind to different people, environments, situations such as urban and not-so-urban. I've tried to change behaviour of my children (and husband and mother) but it's rarely effective. I have been able to introduce new interests with only modest success. Nothing is guaranteed but your son will probably break through, muddle through, or squeak through and lead a happy life. Then he can struggle with whatever comes his way when he has children. He might get it then.


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ << Crystal Aerie >> Va, USA Telnet://crystal-aerie.com
  • From Khelair@VERT/TINFOIL to Crystal Chandelier on Sun Oct 19 17:43:53 2014
    Re: Women in Linux
    By: Crystal Chandelier to Khelair on Sun Oct 19 2014 16:26:00

    We all have a tendancy to find explanations (i.e. excuses). We all have challenges but most things that have a negative influence also have a positive.

    Oh I'm a master at excuses. I've been told multiple times I should've gone into law. ;) I use my talents for procrastination and putting of change that needs to take place a little too often; I'm getting much better at it now, though. I should hope so, being 3/4 of the way through my third decade.
    You've got a very good point about the positives to what I'm viewing as negative. I remember using those very points to argue with my parents about playing my oldschool Atari 8-bit console, computer, and my Sega (up until I graduated to PCs and non-gaming activities). They are, indeed, valid points. I just see the change in his attitude, going from goal-oriented activities and healthful pursuits towards a much more ADDish (if I might bastardize that terminology a bit) instantaneous reward oriented mode. He gets himself into a lot more trouble when he's had more than an hour or two of it a day, and the whining for instant gratification gets soooo much more intense.

    Video games hand-eye coordination, concentration, persistence. Moving opening mind to different people, environments, situations such as urban and not-so-urban. I've tried to change behaviour of my children (and husband and mother) but it's rarely effective. I have been able to introduce new interests with only modest success. Nothing is guaranteed but your son will probably break through, muddle through, or squeak through and lead a happy life. Then he can struggle with whatever comes his way when he has children. He might get it then.

    That's very true. I just want to make sure that he's got the skills that he needs to be able to do well in this overpopulated, cut-throat world that he's going to be growing up in. Being so transient for the past year has kept me from doing as much with him, as far as skill building, as I would like, but I finally nailed down some work here, and I'm hoping to be able to get back with the program again real soon here.
    Best wishes and thanks for the insights. :)

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Tinfoil Tetrahedron BBS telnet or ssh -p 2222 to tinfoil.synchro.net
  • From Crystal Chandelier@VERT/CRYSTAL to Khelair on Sat Oct 25 09:13:00 2014
    Re: kids & Re: Women in Linux
    By: Khelair to Crystal Chandelier on Sun Oct 19 2014 06:43 pm

    That's very true. I just want to make sure that he's got the skills that needs to be able to do well in this overpopulated, cut-throat world that he' going to be growing up in. Being so transient for the past year has kept me from doing as much with him, as far as skill building, as I would like, but finally nailed down some work here, and I'm hoping to be able to get back wi the program again real soon here.
    The world has always been changing quickly. It's just that the closer we get to the changes, the greater they seem - like looking at anything closeup or with a microscope things are larger. Your son will make the most of what he's exposed to including your mobility. Adaptability is an important skill too.


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ << Crystal Aerie >> Va, USA Telnet://crystal-aerie.com