• Re: Usenet: a wasteland or a frontier?

    From ~rdh@rdh@tilde.institute to tilde.services.uucp on Fri Aug 25 15:25:50 2023
    This was originally posted to news.groups.questions, but I wanted to get the opinions of the group here.

    On 2/9/23 20:35, worm food wrote:
    What is old is new again. Depending on one's perspective, [text-based] Usenet
    is either a wasteland or a frontier, like Chernobyl, an abandoned landfill, or
    Detroit. We are all mutants now and can handle the radiation.

    Sure, you could ask, "why bother? everyone moved to Reddit." So what? If I cared what the average joe had to say about a topic, I would certainly go to Reddit. I am, however, interested in mutants.

    Let's discuss how to rehabilitate a few corners of this vast expanse for our own amusement.

    More to the point, how does one become a moderator for one of these many abandoned groups?

    I've been thinking about this lately. With sites like Eternal September, and the moves that Twitter, Reddit, and the other big social networks are making, the time is ripe for a Usenet comeback.

    As I see it, Usenet has two huge problems, and a few smaller ones. The two big problems are pretty related, but have separate causes. The biggest problem is a
    lack of moderation, like you mentioned. The answer for becoming a moderator on any of the Big 8 hierarchies is to submit an RFD to *I think* news.groups. Get enough support, and then bring in the B8MB.[1]

    But if the newsgroup is unmoderated, I think it's a lost cause. `Changing a group from unmoderated to moderated is "strongly discouraged" - which, in practice, means "practically impossible."' [2] Personally, I think this is a mistake on the part of the Big 8 Management Board, and a relic of the days before the Eternal September. Moderation is sorely needed now, and I think you'll have trouble attracting new users when a majority of newsgroups of interest are taken over by bots and spammers.

    The second big problem (As I see it) that Usenet has is that it's a haven of hate speech.[3] Now, I'm not saying it should be the place of Usenet to regulate speech, I'm just saying that a newsgroup like misc.education should not be packed full of racial slurs, and unhinged ramblings.

    The smaller problems could be fixed by a good client, but I'm not sure exactly how that would look, so I'm just going to post the problems as I see them. These aren't ranked in order of importance, just in order that I've thought of them.

    The first is discoverability. In the Big 8, we have the periodic list of newsgroups posted to news.announce.newgroups, which is great! You get the groups' names, and a description of what they're about, and whether or not they're moderated. But there's no mention of how active they are, so you have to subscribe to the list to know. I think this could be as easy as adding a Last Post column, or a Posts in Last Month column, to the list. Of course, without effective moderation, it's impossible to know if those posts are related to the topic, or just trying to sell drugs.

    But in other hierarchies, I know of no such list. I don't know if such a thing is even possible or makes sense. I think the only realistic way is to get a list from your news server, but on mine, at least, this list is enormous. And, at least in Thunderbird, I don't see a description or moderation status. I don't know if those exist on the news server or not.

    Which leads me into the next small problem: The clients are simply not great for general users. Thunderbird is amazing, and I use it as my main newsreader, and email client, but for reading the Usenet, it's simply not amazing. The core
    devs for Thunderbird are mostly focused on email, and I would not be surprised if Usenet support eventually went away. Similarly, other email clients that support news are focusing mostly on email, while the news reader bits stagnate.

    Similarly, dedicated news reader software seems very stuck in the past. In fairness, the core of how Usenet works has not changed in many years, so why should the clients change so much? But when compared to modern social media apps, Usenet is jarring, so if we want to attract new users (and keep Usenet from becoming a wasteland) there is a need for apps that function more in the way kids today expect a communication app to function.

    Relatedly, as far as I know, there isn't an app that syncs read status between multiple devices (Aside from Google Groups, but that has its own problems). Keep in mind: I know not everybody wants this, especially since it would likely
    require some third party server, but plenty of people want to access their media on multiple devices. I think this is another symptom of news readers being stuck in the past, in bygone days when a person would dial into a BBS, or
    connect to their university's mainframe to read the Usenet.

    So, what are the options, and what are the answers? Well... I don't know. I'm fairly new to Usenet myself, and I'm not sure it's my place to suggest sweeping
    changes. But I can tell you my experiences getting around. It's been tough. Seeing a newsgroup that seems interesting, then finding that it's nothing but spam is disheartening. Finding interesting newsgroups full of hate speech is frankly off-putting. Perhaps a coalition of highly motivated advocates could convince the B8MB to change some of it's opinions. Perhaps a semi-skilled programmer could create a Reddit-style web interface for Usenet.

    Oh, and an easy to find FAQ on getting started wouldn't hurt, either.


    [1] https://www.big-8.org/wiki/Moderator_Vacancy_Investigations
    [2] https://www.big-8.org/wiki/Changing_the_Moderation_Status_of_Existing_Groups
    [3] I am not interested in your opinion of free speech.
    --
    ~rdh
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From yeti@yeti@tilde.institute to tilde.services.uucp on Fri Aug 25 16:18:57 2023
    I think we should let Usenet stay as it is and bend(?) NNTP to be more
    P2Pish as playground. That will be pure chaos for a while, but maybe
    with the horrors seen there a middle ground between the two extremes can
    be found.

    I tried hard to forget Reddit, but there are WWW frontents to NNTP, e.g.:

    https://github.com/novabbs/rocksolid-light
    --
    Take Back Control! -- Mesh The Planet!
    I do not play Nethack, I do play GNUS! o;-)
    Solid facts do not need 1001 pictures.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From yeti@yeti@tilde.institute to tilde.services.uucp,tilde.services on Fri Aug 25 16:32:47 2023
    I think we should let Usenet stay as it is and bend(?) NNTP to be more
    P2Pish as playground. That will be pure chaos for a while, but maybe
    with the horrors seen there a middle ground between the two extremes can
    be found.

    I tried hard to forget Reddit, but there are WWW frontents to NNTP, e.g.:

    https://github.com/novabbs/rocksolid-light
    --
    Take Back Control! -- Mesh The Planet!
    I do not play Nethack, I do play GNUS! o;-)
    Solid facts do not need 1001 pictures.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From ~rdh@rdh@tilde.institute to tilde.services.uucp on Mon Aug 28 19:02:54 2023
    On 2023-08-25, yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> wrote:
    I think we should let Usenet stay as it is and bend(?) NNTP to be more
    P2Pish as playground. That will be pure chaos for a while, but maybe
    with the horrors seen there a middle ground between the two extremes can
    be found.

    I tried hard to forget Reddit, but there are WWW frontents to NNTP, e.g.:


    https://github.com/novabbs/rocksolid-light
    NovaBBS is interesting, I wasn't aware of the project. I suspect some
    folks would find a website like that an easier sell than the strange
    news readers that live around.

    Trying to make a new NNTP network, especially a pure(ish) P2P network
    is also an interesting experiment, but I believe would suffer the same
    problems the big Usenet has, but amplified with even more confusion.

    Anyway, here's the new Usenet logo: 𝕌
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From Alex Schroeder@alex@alexschroeder.ch to tilde.services.uucp on Fri Jun 28 09:41:08 2024
    As far as discoverability and moderation goes, I think we need to scale
    back. small clusters of thematically linked servers with a small set of
    groups, and no strangers allowed. It's the Dark Forest future of the
    Internet. Well, I guess we can offer read-only access to strangers but
    not posting. So if the problem is that the list of groups is long and it
    's hard to find good groups, the answer is to make those lists smaller.
    If the problem is spam from unaccountable peers, then the answer is to
    cut them off. If the discoverabilty is a problem, we need to look to
    other media, namely the web. I don't think there's a point in
    radicalizing ourselves and demanding that discovery and all that also
    has to happen via NNTP.

    This is why I support a multitude of web clients, too. But not without accountability for the host, not without logins and consequences and moderation.

    This is what I try to do with campaignwiki.org.

    And to bring it back to UUCP: My regular mail goes via Migadu, but here'
    s what I learned from Tilde Towns -- if all the peers are known good
    actors, I can skip a lot of spam checking. It's the trust benefit! And
    so I'm experimenting with UUCP peering and sending mail directly via
    UUCP. And hopefully one day I'll be able to switch over to NNCP, too.

    Cheers
    Alex
    --- Synchronet 3.19b-Linux NewsLink 1.113