On 2020-08-28, lkosov <lkosov@tilde.town> wrote:

lkosov <lkosov@tilde.town> wrote:

Turns out that long, long, *long* ago--like twenty-some-odd years ago--they >> were a lot more active, with a lot more users, some of whom were more into >> classic fantasy than the modern milieu of the alt.callahans setting. That
second group made their own newsgroup, modeled after alt.callahans but with >> a solidly fantasy theme--alt.dragons-inn.

*That* group is pretty much dead these days, but you can browse posts from >> the glory days at narkive or whatever.

I can't claim any credit or anything like that, but some old-timers from a.d-i have actually been posting the last couple of days, and it appears they're planning on writing the first new story in years there, should
anyone want to watch it happen (or, indeed, take part).

Thanks for the pointer: I just checked it out and it seems there's some activity
indeed! I'm looking forward to read some!

Btw, I saw your post ;-) the user name looked very familiar.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

Dacav Doe <dacav@tilde.institute> wrote:

Btw, I saw your post ;-) the user name looked very familiar.

Heh. I had the links saved, from digging into the group's history, so it
seemed worth helping out.

--
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I was poking around in the crumbling remains of USENET, finding various
obscure little long-forgotten communities (alt.nosebeeping, for instance)
that have come and, for the most part, gone, in the last quarter-century.

Some of you might remember/have heard of alt.callahans, a still semi-active newsgroup inspired by a series of novels and stories by a fellow named
Spider Robinson. It began as a roleplaying/interactive fiction group, but
has sort of drifted from that, and seems mostly just regular... socializing, these days.

Turns out that long, long, *long* ago--like twenty-some-odd years ago--they were a lot more active, with a lot more users, some of whom were more into classic fantasy than the modern milieu of the alt.callahans setting. That second group made their own newsgroup, modeled after alt.callahans but with
a solidly fantasy theme--alt.dragons-inn.

*That* group is pretty much dead these days, but you can browse posts from
the glory days at narkive or whatever.

One of the last posts in the group, from about two years ago, lists some of
the websites, etc that the group has since migrated to. I haven't followed
up too closely, but it seems they're still around, still doing their thing.
If you like that kind of stuff, could be worth looking at.

Searching the web for "alt.dragons-inn" will also bring up a bunch of information, including ancient (last updated 2002...?) collections of
stories and lore and everything. Very cool stuff, and now all but forgotten.

But the other reason I bring this up here, quite aside from the interactive fiction aspect, is something that some of the last posts in alt.dragons-inn mention. A few of the last users of the newsgroup were discussing where everyone had gone, and why.

Some of it was new features, the ability to post art/pictures... chat rooms
and the like being in some ways more immediate, and more conductive, to interactive stories.

It's easy, as an outsider, to look at this and mutter about creeping featureism, to point out that they managed just fine, for years and years,
with the limitations of USENET and everything.

And they did manage just fine, clearly. But from reading those last posts,
it doesn't sound like it was creeping featureism, or the shiny bells and whistles of web-based forums and chatrooms and sites, which drove everyone away, as much as participants increasingly having to use Google Groups to access the newsgroup. A small but thriving community, it would seem,
withered and was driven away by an unnecessarily slow, clunky user
interface.

I just thought that was interesting... and relatable.



--
Inanities: gopher://tilde.town:70/1/~lkosov/ (with netmail address & GPG key) He/him/them/they/whatever. If in doubt, assume the above post contains sarcasm --- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2020-08-03, lkosov <lkosov@tilde.town> wrote:

I was poking around in the crumbling remains of USENET, finding various obscure little long-forgotten communities (alt.nosebeeping, for instance) that have come and, for the most part, gone, in the last quarter-century.

Some of you might remember/have heard of alt.callahans, a still semi-active newsgroup inspired by a series of novels and stories by a fellow named
Spider Robinson. It began as a roleplaying/interactive fiction group, but
has sort of drifted from that, and seems mostly just regular... socializing, these days.

Turns out that long, long, *long* ago--like twenty-some-odd years ago--they were a lot more active, with a lot more users, some of whom were more into classic fantasy than the modern milieu of the alt.callahans setting. That second group made their own newsgroup, modeled after alt.callahans but with
a solidly fantasy theme--alt.dragons-inn.

*That* group is pretty much dead these days, but you can browse posts from the glory days at narkive or whatever.

One of the last posts in the group, from about two years ago, lists some of the websites, etc that the group has since migrated to. I haven't followed
up too closely, but it seems they're still around, still doing their thing. If you like that kind of stuff, could be worth looking at.

Searching the web for "alt.dragons-inn" will also bring up a bunch of information, including ancient (last updated 2002...?) collections of
stories and lore and everything. Very cool stuff, and now all but forgotten.

But the other reason I bring this up here, quite aside from the interactive fiction aspect, is something that some of the last posts in alt.dragons-inn mention. A few of the last users of the newsgroup were discussing where everyone had gone, and why.

Some of it was new features, the ability to post art/pictures... chat rooms and the like being in some ways more immediate, and more conductive, to interactive stories.

It's easy, as an outsider, to look at this and mutter about creeping featureism, to point out that they managed just fine, for years and years, with the limitations of USENET and everything.

And they did manage just fine, clearly. But from reading those last posts,
it doesn't sound like it was creeping featureism, or the shiny bells and whistles of web-based forums and chatrooms and sites, which drove everyone away, as much as participants increasingly having to use Google Groups to access the newsgroup. A small but thriving community, it would seem,
withered and was driven away by an unnecessarily slow, clunky user
interface.

I just thought that was interesting... and relatable.

Hi lkosov. Thanks for sharing! Very interesting, very relatable.

As I mentioned before, I'm a relatively new USENET user, which is probably a bit anachronistic, given that many regard it as dead. Well, many places are
in fact still alive and slowly dying for decades.

After all, not to be grim or anything, every single human being starts to slowly die as soon as they are born, is it not true? :P

Now, reading your story makes me a bit sad, in the same way as those Elves in Tolkien's books, that hear nostalgic songs about legendary golden times.

I'm under the impression that people are scared by text-only interfaces, these days. I suspect that setting up a newsgroup reader seems (or is perceived?) as more difficult than putting very personal details on a browser.

In reality I think it's not more difficult, just less "colourful". Yet, could this be the reason why? Is it just marketing after all?

Cheers.
- dacav
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

Dacav Doe <dacav@tilde.institute> wrote:

As I mentioned before, I'm a relatively new USENET user, which is probably a bit anachronistic, given that many regard it as dead. Well, many places are in fact still alive and slowly dying for decades.

After all, not to be grim or anything, every single human being starts to slowly die as soon as they are born, is it not true? :P

To misquote from memory one of the books that inspired alt.callahans, decay
is inevitable; entropy always increases.

I'm under the impression that people are scared by text-only interfaces, these
days. I suspect that setting up a newsgroup reader seems (or is perceived?) as
more difficult than putting very personal details on a browser.

Some are probably scared by the idea, but I feel like a bigger part of the problem is that nobody knows they exist. (And many of those who do either
have no idea how to find/interact with them, or think they have to pay $15
or $20/month for "Usenet access".)

Usenet doesn't advertise, it doesn't have people dedicated to promoting it. There's no "brand", like there is with, oh, Discord.

(There is a "big 8 council" or something, which I think has three people on
it who basically don't do anything.)

I have some friends I met in an MMO a while back who turn out to be
high-school students. I've gotten a couple of them sort of interested in
IRC, but not Fidonet or Usenet. Listening to what they say, reading between
the lines, I think there's... I don't even want to say a generational
divide, because it's not... but many people, especially younger ones, seem
to have no practical experience with asynchronous communication, and correspondingly little interest. They'll go in a game, or on a Discord
server, because they want to talk, to communicate, *now*... and they can see how many people are there. They can see that there are folks to chat with,
that they won't have to wait for a response. The idea of posting a message
in the morning and then checking for replies that evening, or the next
morning, isn't completely alien or anything, it's just not what they're
looking for, I guess.

The other thing is that the basic account identity on Usenet is an email address, and, man, young folks especially on the 'net these days will (over)share their hopes and dreams and fantasies and fetishes, will tell you their birthdays and Discord IDs and "gamertags" or whatever, but you'll get
an honest answer out of a politician before they share an email address.

In reality I think it's not more difficult, just less "colourful". Yet, could this be the reason why? Is it just marketing after all?

I think marketing is a big, big problem. Anonymity? Not really. Perfect
forward secrecy? Lol nope. Encryption? Basically no. Status messages?
Presence notifications? The ability to see who's online? Nope, nope, nope.
And your posts will all be saved, publicly, for literally any random stranger
to read... forever! To many, it's a terrible system with no redeeming features, because they've been taught to look for certain very specific
things in a... "messaging app". :/

Some see limitations, some see... features, in a way, I suppose. Or
potential, perhaps, if used within limits. Try writing a five-paragraph response on IRC, lol...
--
Inanities: gopher://tilde.town:70/1/~lkosov/ (with netmail address & GPG key) He/him/them/they/whatever. If in doubt, assume the above post contains sarcasm --- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2020-08-05, lkosov <lkosov@tilde.town> wrote:

To misquote from memory one of the books that inspired alt.callahans, decay is inevitable; entropy always increases.

Clever :)

I'm under the impression that people are scared by text-only interfaces, these
days. I suspect that setting up a newsgroup reader seems (or is perceived?) as
more difficult than putting very personal details on a browser.

Some are probably scared by the idea, but I feel like a bigger part of the problem is that nobody knows they exist. (And many of those who do either have no idea how to find/interact with them, or think they have to pay $15
or $20/month for "Usenet access".)

Usenet doesn't advertise, it doesn't have people dedicated to promoting it. There's no "brand", like there is with, oh, Discord.

(There is a "big 8 council" or something, which I think has three people on it who basically don't do anything.)

I have some friends I met in an MMO a while back who turn out to be high-school students. I've gotten a couple of them sort of interested in
IRC, but not Fidonet or Usenet. Listening to what they say, reading between the lines, I think there's... I don't even want to say a generational
divide, because it's not... but many people, especially younger ones, seem
to have no practical experience with asynchronous communication, and correspondingly little interest. They'll go in a game, or on a Discord server, because they want to talk, to communicate, *now*... and they can see how many people are there. They can see that there are folks to chat with, that they won't have to wait for a response. The idea of posting a message
in the morning and then checking for replies that evening, or the next morning, isn't completely alien or anything, it's just not what they're looking for, I guess.

So, basically impatience?

But, USENET aside, there's some great thing in posting asynchronously. Such as the possibility of re-thinking what you wrote before sending it, or to crunch the topic in your head while you wait for a response, and this makes the discussion wiser.

I wonder if some of these youngsters would eventually get there, regardless of the transmission medium. And maybe yes: there are many web-BBS these days, even though they have different names. E.g. lobsters/hacker-news.

The other thing is that the basic account identity on Usenet is an email address, and, man, young folks especially on the 'net these days will (over)share their hopes and dreams and fantasies and fetishes, will tell you their birthdays and Discord IDs and "gamertags" or whatever, but you'll get an honest answer out of a politician before they share an email address.

Well, I actually doubt you would see someone using their real address on USENET, do you? Or rather, yes, some people do, but it's nowhere required to use an actually reachable address.

In reality I think it's not more difficult, just less "colourful". Yet, could
this be the reason why? Is it just marketing after all?

I think marketing is a big, big problem. Anonymity? Not really. Perfect forward secrecy? Lol nope. Encryption? Basically no. Status messages? Presence notifications? The ability to see who's online? Nope, nope, nope. And your posts will all be saved, publicly, for literally any random stranger
to read... forever! To many, it's a terrible system with no redeeming features, because they've been taught to look for certain very specific things in a... "messaging app". :/

Some see limitations, some see... features, in a way, I suppose. Or potential, perhaps, if used within limits. Try writing a five-paragraph response on IRC, lol...

Good thinking, not much to add :)
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

Dacav Doe <dacav@tilde.institute> wrote:

that they won't have to wait for a response. The idea of posting a message >> in the morning and then checking for replies that evening, or the next
morning, isn't completely alien or anything, it's just not what they're
looking for, I guess.

So, basically impatience?

But, USENET aside, there's some great thing in posting asynchronously. Such as
the possibility of re-thinking what you wrote before sending it, or to crunch the topic in your head while you wait for a response, and this makes the discussion wiser.

I wonder if some of these youngsters would eventually get there, regardless of
the transmission medium. And maybe yes: there are many web-BBS these days, even though they have different names. E.g. lobsters/hacker-news.

I'd probably have called it a desire for instant gratification, but
impatience is probably just as, if not more, accurate.

I think many of them will eventually see the virtues of this kind of communication, though I don't know if it'll be growing maturity that sparks
the epiphany, or growing dissatisfaction with the status quo. Or the
eventual realization that people in their 20s/30s are *not* "out of touch boomers" and actually worth communicating with.

Aside from the inherent, intrinsic virtues of asynchronous communication you mentioned, I feel like there are less-quantifiable emotional rewards as well. The pleasant anticipation of new replies or posts, for example. Back when mailing lists were still common, I always signed up for daily digests of messages, partially to cut down on inbox clutter. Ones that rolled over at midnight GMT reached me every evening here in the US, and I used to look forward to getting, and reading, them. I feel like that's a very alien idea
to younger folks today, especially when push notifications have basically destroyed the *experience* of anticipation, of uncertainty, for everyone
with smartphones and messaging apps and everything.

their birthdays and Discord IDs and "gamertags" or whatever, but you'll get >> an honest answer out of a politician before they share an email address.

Well, I actually doubt you would see someone using their real address on USENET, do you? Or rather, yes, some people do, but it's nowhere required to use an actually reachable address.

No, it's not a requirement and most folks probably wouldn't. (The public
NNTP server aioe.org actually forces you to use a fake address, lol.) It
just seems like there's some... I don't know how to describe it, exactly.
It's like there's some, erm, emotional weight, some instinctive anxiety,
maybe, for anything involving email addresses, so that even if you *can* use
a fake one, the fact that it requires one at all, that your post/account/whatever will forever be associated with, findable by, this theoretically-unique string, gives people second thoughts.


--
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lkosov <lkosov@tilde.town> wrote:

Dacav Doe <dacav@tilde.institute> wrote:

In reality I think it's not more difficult, just less "colourful". Yet, could
this be the reason why? Is it just marketing after all?

I think marketing is a big, big problem. Anonymity? Not really. Perfect forward secrecy? Lol nope. Encryption? Basically no. Status messages? Presence notifications? The ability to see who's online? Nope, nope, nope. And your posts will all be saved, publicly, for literally any random stranger to read... forever! To many, it's a terrible system with no redeeming features, because they've been taught to look for certain very specific things in a... "messaging app". :/

Plus a lot of people just dislike anything 'old'. One day some such
newsgroup regular goes off and starts a web forum or Facebook group
(whatever that is). Then they post back saying "look I've made this
NEW place to talk", and after that everyone who keeps posting gets
told by someone "hey, try posting to this NEW place". Soon enough
there's no longer the critical mass of people that keeps the group
active.

Nobody talks about the advantages of the new forum, just the fact
that it's the socially accepted new way of doing things is enough.
Even if it's commercialised and full of advertising, that's just
considered "how things are" now as well. Indeed advertising of
commercial web forums and "social networks" is probably how they
became the socially accepted way of doing things instead of Usenet.

The only places somewhat immune to this are the tech type groups,
because there some people understand enough to rationally compare
the different platforms and decide which actually suits them best.
Plenty such people are willing to ignore that in favour of social
conformity too though, unfortunately.

It's nice to see the Tildes offset this a little bit, as communities
that embrace old internet technology, pushing back on the social
pressure of the larger internet community. It's a bit like classic
car clubs, where enthusiasts might compare how modern cars are so
much harder to maintain yourself, and more complicated than they
need to be.

--

- The Free Thinker | gopher://aussies.space/1/%7efreet/
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2020-08-16, The Free Thinker <freet@aussies.space> wrote:

Plus a lot of people just dislike anything 'old'. One day some such
newsgroup regular goes off and starts a web forum or Facebook group

[...]

Plenty such people are willing to ignore that in favour of social
conformity too though, unfortunately.

Sadness intensifies.

On the plus side, most of the bullshit is cut off :P

It's nice to see the Tildes offset this a little bit, as communities
that embrace old internet technology, pushing back on the social
pressure of the larger internet community. It's a bit like classic
car clubs, where enthusiasts might compare how modern cars are so
much harder to maintain yourself, and more complicated than they
need to be.

Not to mention you don't get to own them [new cars] for real, not even
if you buy them. Which applies on new tech as well. Or at least
anything powered by vendor-centric operating systems, as someone[1]
named it recently.


[1] I don't remember where I read it, but it was a rant, I think :P
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

The Free Thinker <freet@aussies.space> wrote:

The only places somewhat immune to this are the tech type groups,
because there some people understand enough to rationally compare
the different platforms and decide which actually suits them best.
Plenty such people are willing to ignore that in favour of social
conformity too though, unfortunately.

Social conformity, lazyness, and generalized despair and dread brought on by the thousand-and-one walled gardens with their own apps and everything.

As soon as middle-manager techbro gets inconvenienced because he didn't get
an immediate response on $legacy_app, "let's set up a Slack for this since we're all on there anyway." And everyone goes along with it because Slack is horrible, but it beats having yet another app open on your desktop.

When I joined my current employer, the official repository for current
versions of install and backup scripts, etc, was a group chat on Viber. And
the verions were just timestamped - 20190219031717, say - so you just had to scroll up and hope to stumble across what you needed. Why Viber? "We already had it installed and it allows bigger attachments than Discord." *shudder*

--

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On 2020-08-17, lkosov <lkosov@tilde.town> wrote:

As soon as middle-manager techbro gets inconvenienced because he didn't get an immediate response on $legacy_app, "let's set up a Slack for this since we're all on there anyway." And everyone goes along with it because Slack is horrible, but it beats having yet another app open on your desktop.

It is sadly true, I can relate.

I hate slack so much I even sent them an angry rant over the feedback form, which is probably exactly the same as screaming in space.

When I joined my current employer, the official repository for current versions of install and backup scripts, etc, was a group chat on Viber. And the verions were just timestamped - 20190219031717, say - so you just had to scroll up and hope to stumble across what you needed. Why Viber? "We already had it installed and it allows bigger attachments than Discord." *shudder*

But this one is really really bad, man!

It reminds me of some lazy ass developer who kept versioning by means of
copies of archives with the creation date. I guess it might work if you
are the only developer on the codebase...
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

lkosov <lkosov@tilde.town> wrote:

Turns out that long, long, *long* ago--like twenty-some-odd years ago--they were a lot more active, with a lot more users, some of whom were more into classic fantasy than the modern milieu of the alt.callahans setting. That second group made their own newsgroup, modeled after alt.callahans but with
a solidly fantasy theme--alt.dragons-inn.

*That* group is pretty much dead these days, but you can browse posts from the glory days at narkive or whatever.

I can't claim any credit or anything like that, but some old-timers from
a.d-i have actually been posting the last couple of days, and it appears they're planning on writing the first new story in years there, should
anyone want to watch it happen (or, indeed, take part).


--
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On 2020-08-05, lkosov <lkosov@tilde.town> wrote:

Dacav Doe <dacav@tilde.institute> wrote:
problem is that nobody knows they exist. (And many of those who do either have no idea how to find/interact with them, or think they have to pay $15
or $20/month for "Usenet access".)

This is a huge factor. I was a young hacker weirdo in the 2000's and I
asked older people "Does usenet exist? how do I get on that?" and they
told me I needed to pay money and I was like "Lol nah" I joined cosmic
voyage cause I was like "oh wow tildes are still a thing and I like the
idea of writing in a collaborative sci-fi universe" and then I was
messing around in the menu and found slrn and was blown away. I'm 31
years old had no clue there was a text based threaded forum (basically
reddit) all this time. It's a bummer cause I love command line stuff and
I just never knew this whole time.

Also I have no idea what the ettiquette is on replying to something so
much later so sorry if thats not a thing I should be doing.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2021-01-27, b0b@cosmic.voyage <b0b@cosmic.voyage> wrote:

Dacav Doe <dacav@tilde.institute> wrote:
problem is that nobody knows they exist. (And many of those who do either
have no idea how to find/interact with them, or think they have to pay $15 >> or $20/month for "Usenet access".)

This is a huge factor. I was a young hacker weirdo in the 2000's and I
asked older people "Does usenet exist? how do I get on that?" and they
told me I needed to pay money and I was like "Lol nah" I joined cosmic
voyage cause I was like "oh wow tildes are still a thing and I like the
idea of writing in a collaborative sci-fi universe" and then I was
messing around in the menu and found slrn and was blown away. I'm 31
years old had no clue there was a text based threaded forum (basically reddit) all this time. It's a bummer cause I love command line stuff and
I just never knew this whole time.

Welcome :)

Also, I'm not sure if it was mentioned in this thread, but you can use services like AIOE to reach the "real" USENET for free.

Also I have no idea what the ettiquette is on replying to something so
much later so sorry if thats not a thing I should be doing.

I think you do just fine :)


Cheers
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2021-01-27, b0b@cosmic.voyage <b0b@cosmic.voyage> wrote:

It's a bummer cause I love command line stuff and
I just never knew this whole time.

Also, it's not necessarily command line: for instance, you can install Thunderbird, and that is a graphical application that supports
newsgroups :)
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2021-01-27, Dacav Doe <dacav@tilde.institute> wrote:

On 2021-01-27, b0b@cosmic.voyage <b0b@cosmic.voyage> wrote:

It's a bummer cause I love command line stuff and
I just never knew this whole time.

Also, it's not necessarily command line: for instance, you can install Thunderbird, and that is a graphical application that supports
newsgroups :)

Oh cool, good to know. I've used it for mail never knew it did
newsgroups
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2021-01-27, b0b@cosmic.voyage <b0b@cosmic.voyage> wrote:

Also I have no idea what the ettiquette is on replying to something so
much later so sorry if thats not a thing I should be doing.

You're all good! You seem to have good intuitive habits. This is a
pretty small / low-traffic network too so most people are just happy to
see engagement. :)
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2020-08-16, The Free Thinker <freet@aussies.space> wrote:

I think marketing is a big, big problem. Anonymity? Not really. Perfect
forward secrecy? Lol nope. Encryption? Basically no. Status messages?
Presence notifications? The ability to see who's online? Nope, nope, nope. >> And your posts will all be saved, publicly, for literally any random stranger
to read... forever! To many, it's a terrible system with no redeeming
features, because they've been taught to look for certain very specific
things in a... "messaging app". :/

Yeah, I think that maybe some people who would normally be interested in
using this might not due to the privacy issues and such.

Plus a lot of people just dislike anything 'old'. One day some such
newsgroup regular goes off and starts a web forum or Facebook group
(whatever that is). Then they post back saying "look I've made this
NEW place to talk", and after that everyone who keeps posting gets
told by someone "hey, try posting to this NEW place". Soon enough
there's no longer the critical mass of people that keeps the group
active.

I think that yes, lot's of people will be turned off by the old
tech/aesthetic whatever, it also can attract a lot of people, either
older folks for nostalgia, or younger people. Me for example, I'm quite
young, and never really experienced any of this sort of technology. I
grew up with GUI's and modern technology. But this has an appeal to me
because it gives me a chance to go back and see what it was like, I
guess.

Nobody talks about the advantages of the new forum, just the fact
that it's the socially accepted new way of doing things is enough.
Even if it's commercialised and full of advertising, that's just
considered "how things are" now as well. Indeed advertising of
commercial web forums and "social networks" is probably how they
became the socially accepted way of doing things instead of Usenet.

Yeah, I see this a lot, for example with a large number of open-source
projects now having discord servers for their community, when something
like a forum might work better. Also seems kind of hypocrticial since
discord is closed-source and very insecure. It'd be better for them to
setup an irc, matrix, or xmpp room.

The only places somewhat immune to this are the tech type groups,
because there some people understand enough to rationally compare
the different platforms and decide which actually suits them best.
Plenty such people are willing to ignore that in favour of social
conformity too though, unfortunately.

Most people just use tech because of convienience, wether that's ease of
use or just that everyone else they know uses it, so why switch to
something else? To solve this I think that we should make software easier
to use and more accessible, and educate people better about privacy and
why it's neccesary.

It's nice to see the Tildes offset this a little bit, as communities
that embrace old internet technology, pushing back on the social
pressure of the larger internet community. It's a bit like classic
car clubs, where enthusiasts might compare how modern cars are so
much harder to maintain yourself, and more complicated than they
need to be.

Yeah. I enjoy the benefits of modern technology, their ease of use, nice graphics, etc., but it's cool to also be able to access the old stuff
too, I have a bunch of options depending on what I want to do which I
think is amazing.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

Well, I'd like to point out that there's usually a good reason people
embrace new technology. There's a *reason* IRC has declined. It doesn't
support rich text. It doesn't support in-line images or video. Sending
files is a pain in the ass (I'm a tech geek and even I still cannot get
DCC to work reliably). That's just one example.

The reason Facebook groups are popular is because Facebook itself is
popular, and a lot of people use it as their primary online social
network. Therefore, while they are checking their feed, they also see
posts about whatever they're interested in, all in the same place.

A combination of both of those reasons is why Discord is so
popular. It's stupidly easy to use, inline rich text with Markdown,
sending files and images and video is easy. Plus it actually supports
emoji.

I'm a supporter of de-centralized things like Mastodon and Tox, but the
reason they haven't achieved critical mass is because the barrier to
entry is higher. People won't put up with difficult setup if nobody they
know is using the service. This is why Mastodon has struggled. "Why would
I join Mastodon if me and my friends already use Twitter?" Privacy
issues are not first and foremost in most people's day to day usage
concerns. They just want things to work reliably and be easy to
use. Hence apps like Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook,
etc. They're all very easy to use, and it's worth dealing with any
hiccups because that's where everyone already is. That's a huge
impediment to smaller systems, and also why previous generations of communications tech is being wiped out.

It's not just a dislike of anything "old". There are concrete reasons
why people use newer tech. I mean, go ahead and use your 486 on a
day-to-day basis now :) You won't get very far. Software is the same
way.

This isn't to say I *like* these platforms. I do like the Twitter
interface and concept but Twitter themselves leave a *lot* to be
desired. Facebook is a cesspool and I actually did ditch it for over a
year, but so many of my old friends and family are only easy to contact
via Facebook, so I grudgingly signed up again. I do use Mastodon (on the
SDF instance) and I've also started to use Matrix, but they both have
issues of widespread acceptance and also some technical issues I've run
into.

Anyway, I understand both sides quite well. Aside from the privacy
issues, there's a lot of new features and usability improvements on
newer sites/forums like Facebook, Discord, etc. and that is what is
drawing users over. If IRC had actually evolved with the times and came
out with a new, backward-compatible protocol that supported rich text,
images, etc. then it could easily have been the underlying technology of
so many modern messaging apps. I mean, Twitch even still uses IRC as the backend for their messaging, but that's because they just wanted simple
text chat. And from what I've heard they are planning to move away from
IRC.

So, the best thing to do if you're not a fan of the big conglomerate app companies is to support and use alternatives like Matrix, Mastodon, Tox, Signal, etc. and encourage family and friends to move to them. I managed
to get both of my parents to use Signal about a year and a half
ago. It's just really nice knowing that nobody else can read our
messages or listen to our phone calls. I've struggled to get other
people to ditch Facebook. Other than Mastodon there's not really
anything that adequately replaces it yet.

Just some food for thought!
-amr
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

A.M. Rowsell <amr@tilde.club> wrote:

It's not just a dislike of anything "old". There are concrete reasons
why people use newer tech. I mean, go ahead and use your 486 on a
day-to-day basis now :) You won't get very far.

Well I can't let that pass without noting this from a PC that I use
every day on the internet and am posting from now:

$ cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep 'model name'
model name : Pentium 75 - 200

As for the rest, it seems to me that use of images and rich text is
pretty rare in online communications. But it probably all depends
where you look, and I've never used Facebook or Twitter so I'm
mainly comparing with web forums (where people often have to upload
images to external hosting sites like they can do on
plain-text-only communications protocols anyway). I'm not even
interested in instant messaging so I don't even use IRC.

I guess I just think that there are plenty of people who move on
to these new technologies even though they never use the new
features that come with them. Some probably do, but personally I
don't seem to want to talk to those people in the first place
anyway.

--

- The Free Thinker | gopher://aussies.space/1/%7efreet/
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

The Free Thinker <freet@aussies.space> wrote:

$ cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep 'model name'
model name : Pentium 75 - 200

Oh err... that was to say "$ grep 'model name' /proc/cpuinfo", for
anyone about to charge me with a useless use of cat :).

--

- The Free Thinker | gopher://aussies.space/1/%7efreet/
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

So because someone uses a new form of communication, you don't want to
talk to them anyway?

And yeah, I guess you never *have* used any modern communication,
because rich text and in-line images and emoji are standard. They are constantly used to show emotion and communicate different things in
succinct ways.

And sure, you're using an early Pentium. Do you actually use anything
modern? Firefox? Gmail? Web apps of any kind? The modern web in general?
If all you do is post to text-based forums and newsgroups, then sure --
you don't need anything modern. But you'll notice these forms of
communication are dying swiftly because there are better ways to
communicate. And it's not even a vague 'better' that users use without
really understanding why -- it's an obvious increase in ease-of-use; multi-language support; rich text and images; end-to-end encryption by
default; easy to find and add new friends to conversations because these
system have reached social critical mass.

I'm not trying to bash you -- far from it. I really enjoy using vintage
tech. I have an NEC Versa 4000 laptop that I use specifically *because*
it can't easily use the modern web. I fire up WordPerfect 5.2 when I am
hit with writer's block, and it's nice to have a distraction-free
environment. But there is just no way I could possibly use it as my main machine. It simply doesn't support the software I use. Without something
as simple as KiCAD it's an automatic fail in terms of usability.

Anyway, more power to you -- if you enjoy what you are doing and find it adequate, far be it from me to try and make you change. That's not my intention, I'm just illustrating *why* users are where they are and why
the computing world has changed so drastically in the past decades.

I mean, even in the 90s, were people really still using their Altair
8800s for serious work? Maybe a small handful of people, but at that
time even the Commodore 64 was dying out with just a small bastion of
loyal users that remained due to advances like the SuperCPU, etc.

It is definitely interesting to hear your thoughts on the issue!

Cheers,
amr
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

A.M. Rowsell <amr@tilde.club> wrote:

So because someone uses a new form of communication, you don't want to
talk to them anyway?

And yeah, I guess you never *have* used any modern communication,
because rich text and in-line images and emoji are standard. They are constantly used to show emotion and communicate different things in
succinct ways.

Well I _have_ seen them, but as the web forums I look at (and
admitedly I mainly stick to Usenet, so it isn't many) are focused
on technical topics a good 90+% of posts are text-only. Photos are
occasional screenshots or diagrams, best viewed full-screen by
following the link anyway. Ignoring user icons, which I don't care
much about (and Usenet has a solution for that anyway).

People have still left Usenet to go to those sorts of forums. I
don't know why except following a general trend. THEY are the
people I'd like to see back on Usenet personally. Others who post
lots of images and use lots of emojis, well I'm obviously not
interested in their groups, so I guess I'm not thinking about
them much. I gather Facebook is all about that sort of thing,
I will admit to being completely ignorant of all that.

Photography might be one area I'm interested in where web forum
users would have a good excuse. Though I'd still mainly be
interested in talking about technical aspects rather than just
comparing photos.

And sure, you're using an early Pentium. Do you actually use anything
modern? Firefox? Gmail? Web apps of any kind? The modern web in general?
If all you do is post to text-based forums and newsgroups, then sure --
you don't need anything modern. But you'll notice these forms of communication are dying swiftly because there are better ways to
communicate. And it's not even a vague 'better' that users use without
really understanding why -- it's an obvious increase in ease-of-use; multi-language support; rich text and images; end-to-end encryption by default; easy to find and add new friends to conversations because these system have reached social critical mass.

I'm not trying to bash you -- far from it. I really enjoy using vintage
tech. I have an NEC Versa 4000 laptop that I use specifically *because*
it can't easily use the modern web. I fire up WordPerfect 5.2 when I am
hit with writer's block, and it's nice to have a distraction-free environment. But there is just no way I could possibly use it as my main machine. It simply doesn't support the software I use. Without something
as simple as KiCAD it's an automatic fail in terms of usability.

I do use more modern machines for things like KiCAD (well a 1GHz
Pentium III at the moment, but an upgrade is slowly being
prepared). Also downloading YouTube videos and converting them for
playback on a similarly antiquated cabbled-together TV media player
system. This Pentium I is mainly just the regular daily computer
for routine browsing and emails, whereas the PIII is used for most
real work.

For the web, it's not forums but online shopping (buying and
selling, I run a business from this HW) and government websites
that are big drivers of needing faster hardware. As this really is
impossible now on a PI (and getting quite tricky with a PIII) I
recently set up an Atomic Pi board for running X windows for things
like Firefox on my old PCs over the network. See far more detail
than you probably want here: gopher://aussies.space:70/0/%7efreet/phlog/2020-08-16An_Xcellent_Idea.txt gopher://aussies.space:70/0/%7efreet/phlog/2020-08-22Xcellence_Continued.txt gopher://aussies.space:70/0/%7efreet/phlog/2020-12-06Me_and_My_Xcellent_Ideas.txt

So I can now use the modern web from this Pentium I, though I
only do so when I can't avoid it.

Actually the main problem I have isn't about the old hardware, but
my refusing to use Chrome(ium) instead of Firefox leads to trouble
with some websites.

--

- The Free Thinker | gopher://aussies.space/1/%7efreet/
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

I still use SMS on a Nokia 3310 from 2000 and I love it. I also feel
like replacing my current PC with an old Pentium one would not impact me
much either since I use the command line a lot. Sometimes I find old
technology just did it better.

Consumers tend to hop on the bandwagon of what's new and shiny (see
Zoom and how before 2020 you likely never heard of it). They also value
ease of use over any sort of privacy, security or technological merit.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2020-08-03, lkosov <lkosov@tilde.town> wrote:

I was poking around in the crumbling remains of USENET, finding various obscure little long-forgotten communities (alt.nosebeeping, for instance) that have come and, for the most part, gone, in the last quarter-century.

Some of you might remember/have heard of alt.callahans, a still semi-active newsgroup inspired by a series of novels and stories by a fellow named
Spider Robinson. It began as a roleplaying/interactive fiction group, but
has sort of drifted from that, and seems mostly just regular... socializing, these days.

Turns out that long, long, *long* ago--like twenty-some-odd years ago--they were a lot more active, with a lot more users, some of whom were more into classic fantasy than the modern milieu of the alt.callahans setting. That second group made their own newsgroup, modeled after alt.callahans but with
a solidly fantasy theme--alt.dragons-inn.

*That* group is pretty much dead these days, but you can browse posts from the glory days at narkive or whatever.

One of the last posts in the group, from about two years ago, lists some of the websites, etc that the group has since migrated to. I haven't followed
up too closely, but it seems they're still around, still doing their thing. If you like that kind of stuff, could be worth looking at.

Searching the web for "alt.dragons-inn" will also bring up a bunch of information, including ancient (last updated 2002...?) collections of
stories and lore and everything. Very cool stuff, and now all but forgotten.

But the other reason I bring this up here, quite aside from the interactive fiction aspect, is something that some of the last posts in alt.dragons-inn mention. A few of the last users of the newsgroup were discussing where everyone had gone, and why.

Some of it was new features, the ability to post art/pictures... chat rooms and the like being in some ways more immediate, and more conductive, to interactive stories.

It's easy, as an outsider, to look at this and mutter about creeping featureism, to point out that they managed just fine, for years and years, with the limitations of USENET and everything.

And they did manage just fine, clearly. But from reading those last posts,
it doesn't sound like it was creeping featureism, or the shiny bells and whistles of web-based forums and chatrooms and sites, which drove everyone away, as much as participants increasingly having to use Google Groups to access the newsgroup. A small but thriving community, it would seem,
withered and was driven away by an unnecessarily slow, clunky user
interface.

I just thought that was interesting... and relatable.

On IF and text games, after playing some *good* IF such as Anchorhead, Slouch over Bedlam or All Thing Devours (even if I am not a native English speaker), or some good Spanish IF (there are some really good for Spanish beginners),
and ofc some roguelikes on top of them, every new game feels slow, dull and senseless. Even some older ones like Anachronox get boring fast, at least compared to games with some scifi lore such as Gearhead.

On modern media, half of it it's sensationalist, bad memes and bullshit stories in order to gain money, ads and clicks. I won't miss it a lot.
My main setup it's framebuffer based, wih swirc+bitlbee against telegram-purple order to chat with family and non-geek friends.

And well, I can watch movies/display PDF or images and listen to music
in the framebuffer, too, so in the end I am not as "disconnected".
Also, mednafen works over the framebuffer so my GF enjoys some
SNES adventures/RPGS. Even coop works, SDL handles it perfectly.

The problem today it's bloatyness and Electron on everything. Even
Chromium has a long switch in order to disable most tracking,
animations and force it to behave as if it was being ran from
an older tablet. And, guess what? Everything works perfectly by using 1/8th
of the resources.

I guess they have to sell new hardware somehow.
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Linux NewsLink 1.113

For those who like the history of the early 'net, here's an archived copy of
a 2009 article/ebook about the early 1990s communities of the Chatsubo (alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo) and the assorted alt.pub. newsgroups; as with a lot
of other stuff I've been finding/posting about here, much of this spun off
in one way or another from alt.callahans.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150509031718/http://www.teleread.com/ebooks/paleo-e-books-altcyberpunkchatsubo-and-altpub/

If that's not super interesting to you, just following links on that page
can be a fascinating look at the web of yore...
--
Inanities: gopher://tilde.town:70/1/~lkosov/ (with netmail address & GPG key) He/him/them/they/whatever. If in doubt, assume the above post contains sarcasm --- Synchronet 3.19a-Linux NewsLink 1.113