Greetings frineds!

I'm back at it again. I recently discovered three very similar hobbyist projects that have inspired me to create this idea that I wish to share
with fellow Tilde people.

It all started when I was downloading some source for a PL/M compiler,
in the README for which, I noticed, an email address prefixed with
'BITNET' (and another prefixed 'INTERNET'), so, intrigued by what this mysterious net of old was, I did a quick Ecosia (lmao) for BITNET, and discovered that, in short, it was a network of IBM Mainframes connected
of IBM's NJE (Network Job Entry) protocol!

This, in my mind, was cool, and I then found out that it had been
resurrected by a group of IBM Mainframe hobbyists (moshix.dynu.net -
network info). The problem was, the trouble I'd have to go to with
emulating OpenVMS or MVS 3.8, getting it connected to the internet, and
then peering that machine in my back bedroom to a gateway server, was
way too much for me, so I looked for a similar project.

I then discovered HECnet! A causal DECnet based network setup by a very
nice Swedish DEC guy, but still, getting a system to connect was *still*
too much trouble. (Website - http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html)

Lastly, I stumbled upon cyber1 - a new PLATO system based on an emulated
CYBER mainframe, running the CYBIS variant of PLATO. And this was great, except for:

A.) There was little actual activity on the system.

and...

B.) There was no actual 'network' of systems.

No, what I wanted was a mainframe-style network, of varying nodes,
creativity and considerably less ancient protocols.

So, I thought to myself over a Diet Coke, why don't I just... make the protocols and first implementations?

I haven't done any substantial work, but I want some input on where to
go with this net, so, suggest away!

Thanks,

Joe. H



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On Sat, 5 Jun 2021, Joe (~rebello) Harley wrote:

No, what I wanted was a mainframe-style network, of varying nodes, creativity and considerably less ancient protocols.

So, I thought to myself over a Diet Coke, why don't I just... make the protocols and first implementations?

I haven't done any substantial work, but I want some input on where to
go with this net, so, suggest away!

From a read of you post, I'm confused. So, are you aiming to create
a new mainframe protocol; or aiming to find *existing* one that is
not too old and has substantial active installation base
to communicate with?

Anyway, I'm not familiar with mainframe networks at all:
most of what I have learned of came from minicomputer era
(including TCP/IP) and later. Off the top of my head,
other than the mainstream TCP/IP-over-Ethernet combo, there are...

Store 'n Forward:

- UUCP: used in minicomputers; still in niche uses in
isolated networks and jungle (also routable over TCP/IP)
- FidoNet: used in personal computers; still in niche uses in
BBSes circle where there are non-trivial number
of active nodes [1] (also routable over TCP/IP)

Virtual Circuits:

- ATM: used in telco networks in voice+data routing; and still in
limited end user-visible uses, as a part of (A)DSL

Packet Switching:

- ITU-T X.25: still in uses somewhere deep in telco networks
- AX.25: niche uses in amateur radio circle
- Novell IPX: used in Netware universe (limited routability over TCP/IP)
- M$ NetBIOS: in-use in Microsoft universe (also routable over TCP/IP)


From this list, the one I aim to personally look into is UUCP.
This is because I'm interested in protocol that allows messages-based communication and content access without requiring always-on connection [2], potentially usable over sneakernet, and could be completely decentralized.

What I have wrote so far might not really answer your question;
but I think the next thing to ask is: what kind of protocol "niche"
(area of specialized uses) you are aiming to explore?

Regards,
~xwindows

-----

[1] ~deepend of Tilde.club run one of such node.
<http://rdnetbbs.com/>
<http://wiki.synchro.net/bbs:retrodigital>

[2] UUCP was was actually a main vehicle for emails and USENET delivery
back in the early days of networked Unix family of timesharing system.
It also facilitates remote command execution, which can be used as
underlying mechanism for various content access scheme.
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 06/06/2021 14:37, xwindows wrote:

From a read of you post, I'm confused. So, are you aiming to create
a new mainframe protocol; or aiming to find *existing* one that is
not too old and has substantial active installation base
to communicate with

Ah, let me clear things up:
I'm attempting to create a new protocol similar to those used on old mainframes ;)

While finding an existing protocol would be better, as far as I know,
there isn't one that fits my requirements, so here we are.

- FidoNet: used in personal computers; still in niche uses in
BBSes circle where there are non-trivial number
of active nodes [1] (also routable over TCP/I

Yup, I still use FidoNet often, but really, it's just messages and file sharing, while these are two of my goals, I want to do more, and have
the network not be too tied to certain uses (tl;dr: Not general purpose
enough for my tastes)

From this list, the one I aim to personally look into is UUCP.
This is because I'm interested in protocol that allows messages-based
communication and content access without requiring always-on connection [2], >> potentially usable over sneakernet, and could be completely decentralized

I too was looking into UUCP, for a while, but again, as good as it is,
it's too tied to email and USENET distribution for me.

what kind of protocol "niche"
(area of specialized uses) you are aiming to explore?

As I've mentioned, I really want there to be no set uses for it, but,
the three uses I personally would focus on are:

- Email and general messaging.

- File Sharing

- Remote Command Execution, much like UUCP.

- Playing classic 'mainframe' games over the network (Think Zork, and Startrek/Trek).

Hope this clears things up,

Joe. H
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Linux NewsLink 1.113

On 2021-06-06, Joe (~rebello) Harley <rebello@tilde.club> wrote:

On 06/06/2021 14:37, xwindows wrote:

From this list, the one I aim to personally look into is UUCP.
This is because I'm interested in protocol that allows messages-based
communication and content access without requiring always-on connection [2],
potentially usable over sneakernet, and could be completely decentralized

I too was looking into UUCP, for a while, but again, as good as it is,
it's too tied to email and USENET distribution for me.

Apparently when I have a Saturday afternoon that I'm not busy, I go read over the Tilde archives and reply to posts from last year :-)

So a lot of things about UUCP describe it in those terms, but UUCP was actually not particularly invented for those things and isn't tied to them.

There are two fundamental operations in UUCP:

uux - request remote execution of something (piping data to it)

uucp - copy a file between machines

What I might actually suggest would be NNCP, which is a modern update of UUCP (sort of like ssh updated telnet). It has the same two fundamental operations as UUCP, but with modern encryption, more flexibility, and built-in support for sneakernet. https://www.complete.org/nncp-concepts/ may get you started.

- John
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