Gamgee wrote to August Abolins <=-

Agreed. I'm old enough to have learned cursive writing in school. I
will have to say that I have *VERY* rarely ever wanted/needed to use
it, though. Other than signatures of course. I'm kinda on the fence
on whether it's worth taking all that time to teach a kid how to do it. Would that class time be better spent on teaching them how to balance a checkbook/debit account, do basic income tax preparation, basic cooking skills, etc etc...? I never took it as a kid, but I remember some kind
of elective course called "home economics" being offered. Seems like
kids today don't know much about how to actually operate in the real world.

I took both personal finance and home ec in middle and high school as well
as having parents who care enough to teach me at home. My mother taught me how to cook and bake; read a recipe as well as how to double, triple, and halve a recipe; sew and mend; and many other sundry skills. My stepfather taught me about "shadetree mechanics" as well as keeping a toolkit in your vehicle to help yourself or others in a tight spot.

Kids these days are absolutely clueless and obtuse through no fault of their own (well, the desire to learn is not there so perhaps a smidgen of blame). It's pitiful and frightening to realize these are the future of
civilization in 20-30 years.

-- Sean

... Smile you may meet a person who will play with your life.
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Kurt Weiske wrote to Gamgee <=-

My family's cabin near Donner Summit (elevation 7122, about 180 miles inland) would make nice beachfront property, and quite near the
soon-to-be Nevada free-trade territories, post USA.

I'm wanting oceanfront property in Arizona (as the song goes).

-- Sean

... Windows: the answer to a question nobody has ever asked.
___ MultiMail/Win v0.52

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Kurt Weiske wrote to Arelor <=-

And they probably cost a fraction of what they cost today. In the USA, college tuitions have increased orders of magnitude greater than the
cost of living has risen, private college endowments can reach the billions of dollars, and instead of re-investing in education, are
making schools more exclusive to justify the tuition increases.

I think that the government's student loan program caused a lot of the price increase. I remember in 1991, a semester of classes at Portland (OR) Community College was $300, not counting books and supplies.

-- Sean

... I/O I/O IT'S WRITE TO DISK I GO I/O I/O.
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Kurt Weiske wrote to August Abolins <=-

He has a bizarre way of holding the pencil between his thumb, index and ring finger that's very slow, and he's a poor note-taker because of it (and claims that it's too late to change).

In 2008, when a car accident removed my right hand from my arm and it was literally bolted back on, I taught myself at the age of 36 how to write
again. He'll learn though I pray not through the same situation I did.

With the nerve damage from the accident and now diabetic neuropathy, it is difficult for me to hold a pen though I have a fountain pen that I can hold quite easily (a Lamy Safari). It has a solid triangular-shaped area that I can hold securely in my finger and thumb and know I won't drop it.

I've tried to inform him that he'll be writing all his life and the earlier he's comfortable with it, the better.

Exactly.

I'm left-handed, was taught to orient the paper the way a right-hander does, so I hook my hand over the writing - which has resulted in a lifetime of smeared writing and poor cursive.

My mother was forced to write right-handed in her schooling though she is left-handed also. That eventually stopped as society learned that writing left-handed is also normal.

My mother also says that only left-handed people are in their right mind.

I never took typing classes in high school, so I hunt-and-peck, albeit very quickly.

I took typing classes; first learned on an Olivetti electric typewriter then officially took classes using an IBM Selectric electric typewriter. A Model M-style keyboard is my favorite. At one time many decades ago, I could type about 130 WPM. Now with damaged hands, I'm down to 50 to 80 WPM.

My stepfather is missing several fingers off both hands ... he hunts and
pecks at about 55 WPM!

I'd hope the next generation would learn from my mistakes, but no...
:)

Committing a mistake commits it to memory.

-- Sean


... Radioactive cats have 18 half lives.
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Sean Dennis wrote to Gamgee <=-

Agreed. I'm old enough to have learned cursive writing in school. I
will have to say that I have *VERY* rarely ever wanted/needed to use
it, though. Other than signatures of course. I'm kinda on the fence
on whether it's worth taking all that time to teach a kid how to do it. Would that class time be better spent on teaching them how to balance a checkbook/debit account, do basic income tax preparation, basic cooking skills, etc etc...? I never took it as a kid, but I remember some kind
of elective course called "home economics" being offered. Seems like
kids today don't know much about how to actually operate in the real world.

I took both personal finance and home ec in middle and high
school as well as having parents who care enough to teach me at
home. My mother taught me how to cook and bake; read a recipe as
well as how to double, triple, and halve a recipe; sew and mend;
and many other sundry skills. My stepfather taught me about
"shadetree mechanics" as well as keeping a toolkit in your
vehicle to help yourself or others in a tight spot.

I had similar experiences. I guess a key ingredient in getting that
type of education is having family that cares enough to try to get you
that information. Unfortunately some don't have that situation.

Kids these days are absolutely clueless and obtuse through no
fault of their own (well, the desire to learn is not there so
perhaps a smidgen of blame). It's pitiful and frightening to
realize these are the future of civilization in 20-30 years.

Indeed it is. They're also (generally) soft and unable to cope with
extreme situations, either physical or mental. Easily manipulated and
easily eliminated if they don't suit their masters' purposes.



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Hello Gamgee,

Thursday August 12 2021 21:31, you wrote to me:

I had similar experiences. I guess a key ingredient in getting that
type of education is having family that cares enough to try to get you
that information. Unfortunately some don't have that situation.

These days, it's hard to get the parents to take responsibility for anything, including their children.

Indeed it is. They're also (generally) soft and unable to cope with extreme situations, either physical or mental. Easily manipulated and
easily eliminated if they don't suit their masters' purposes.

Sadly evidenced by the world today.

-- Sean

... Gravity brings me down.
--- GoldED/2 3.0.1
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Sean Dennis wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

I think that the government's student loan program caused a lot of the price increase. I remember in 1991, a semester of classes at Portland (OR) Community College was $300, not counting books and supplies.

Completely agree, while making it more expensive for the students like me
with working parents who came in above the grant limits.


... Destroy nothing; Destroy the most important thing
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Kurt Weiske wrote to Sean Dennis <=-

Completely agree, while making it more expensive for the students like
me with working parents who came in above the grant limits.

Back then, I knew people who were working a minimum wage job ($4.25 an hour back then if I remember right) who put themselves through college. Some worked two jobs -and- went to school. Now you'd have to be filthy rich to
go to school without some help.

It's a sad situation but Tennessee has a great trade school program ... and
if I had to do it over again, I'd get into HVAC as there's good money there.

-- Sean

... Laughter is the best lubricant for life's engine.
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It's a sad situation but Tennessee has a great trade school program ...
and if I had to do it over again, I'd get into HVAC as there's good money there.

The trade schools are where it is at unless you like getting into major debt before even starting out in life. I can only think of a few careers that would actually be worth going to college from a return on investment perspective - doctors and lawyers.

Even back when I was growing up, I decided to do a 6 month trade school vs. college. I did't want to waste the time or money on college - and wanted to get right into the business world. That worked out for me.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
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Hello Mark Hofmann!

** On Sunday 15.08.21 - 17:49, Mark Hofmann wrote to Sean Dennis:

The trade schools are where it is at unless you like
getting into major debt before even starting out in life.
I can only think of a few careers that would actually be
worth going to college from a return on investment
perspective - doctors and lawyers.

I would add engineer to the list.

Even a career in realestate wouldn't be too bad. Apparently
it's just $10K to get started, and that is recouped pretty
quickly after selling a handful of properties.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.50
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Hello Mark,

Sunday August 15 2021 17:49, you wrote to me:

Even back when I was growing up, I decided to do a 6 month trade
school vs. college. I did't want to waste the time or money on
college - and wanted to get right into the business world. That
worked out for me.

I went into $40K of debt with school but it has been forgiven since I am now permanently disabled. I wish I'd gone to a trade school instead of IT. Trades have a much brighter future, especially as you get older if you haven't worked into upper management in IT with its age bias.

-- Sean

... If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
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Re: Kids don't like scho
By: August Abolins to Mark Hofmann on Sun Aug 15 2021 06:19 pm

The trade schools are where it is at unless you like
getting into major debt before even starting out in life.
I can only think of a few careers that would actually be
worth going to college from a return on investment
perspective - doctors and lawyers.

I would add engineer to the list.

I wouldn't :-)

Computer Scientists seem to have it better than your regular engineers, and even them are sucking it big time depending on where they land.

--
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Even a career in realestate wouldn't be too bad. Apparently
it's just $10K to get started, and that is recouped pretty
quickly after selling a handful of properties.

Around here you can get your real estate license for around $500. You just need 60 hours of training and the classes are cheap.

My favorite types of work are technical, financial, and business (or all three together). The ideal job would be working for myself so that I wouldn't have to deal with corporate bullshit which has run overboard these days.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

I went into $40K of debt with school but it has been forgiven since I am now permanently disabled. I wish I'd gone to a trade school instead of
IT. Trades have a much brighter future, especially as you get older if
you haven't worked into upper management in IT with its age bias.

I will say that I respect and admire the people that started their own business in various trades, tech, or anything. All the business owners I know make way more than anyone working for a company, with maybe the exception of the CEOs.

That is the ultimate, since you are your own boss, control your own destiny, and can really make endless amounts of money. And the best part... Don't have to deal with corporate BS.

- Mark

--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (618:100/12.0)

The trade schools are where it is at unless you like
getting into major debt before even starting out in life.
I can only think of a few careers that would actually be
worth going to college from a return on investment
perspective - doctors and lawyers.

I'd agree with that.. plus you usually need a degree in 'something' (Basket weaving?) to get a government job which generally pays better and has better extras than a 'real' job..

Even a career in realestate wouldn't be too bad. Apparently

>it's just $10K to get started, and that is recouped pretty
>quickly after selling a handful of properties.

These days the commission on selling One property would more than cover that.

I did that for a few years, sales and, eventually, office manager but when the company I was working with closed down I gave it up. Lots of driving around
and most of your working hours are evenings and weekends and it's a pretty cut-throat job. I did pretty well at it but I think I was too 'honest' to be really good at it.. B)
---
* SLMR Rob * "Floggings will continue until morale improves"
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Mark Hofmann wrote to Sean Dennis <=-

The trade schools are where it is at unless you like getting into major debt before even starting out in life. I can only think of a few
careers that would actually be worth going to college from a return on investment perspective - doctors and lawyers.

I need to see how Google's technical certification schooling is going.

I'd love to be starting out in IT now; there is so much information on YouTube, Linkedin Learning and other places for free or available inexpensively that you could get a jump start in a technical field
relatively quickly. Not to mention being able to set up a virtualized home
lab or a pi and have a sandbox to play with...


... Feed the recording back out of the medium
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
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I'd love to be starting out in IT now; there is so much information on YouTube, Linkedin Learning and other places for free or available inexpensively that you could get a jump start in a technical field
relatively quickly. Not to mention being able to set up a virtualized home lab or a pi and have a sandbox to play with...

Before I started out in IT, I got most of my IT information from BBSes. :)

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * Artificial intelligence is better than none.
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Hello Rob,

Tuesday August 17 2021 01:07, you wrote to AUGUST ABOLINS:

I'd agree with that.. plus you usually need a degree in 'something' (Basket weaving?) to get a government job which generally pays better
and has better extras than a 'real' job..

That's not true. You can get good jobs at the VA and USPS without a degree that pay substantially more than other jobs. There are a lot of jobs that require a degree, yes, but there are many jobs that do not require a degree.

Right now the USPS is hiring 100,000 people for jobs that do not require a degree and pay between $15-$40 an hour.

-- Sean

... Crane's Law: there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
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Hello Kurt,

Monday August 16 2021 07:30, you wrote to Mark Hofmann:

I'd love to be starting out in IT now; there is so much information on
YouTube, Linkedin Learning and other places for free or available
inexpensively that you could get a jump start in a technical field
relatively quickly. Not to mention being able to set up a virtualized home lab or a pi and have a sandbox to play with...

You know as well as I do that unless you're highly specialized, IT doesn't pay shit ... though it pays a hell of a lot more than having to live on Social Security.

-- Sean

... America is the land of opportunity. Everyoe can become a taxpayer.
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Sean Dennis wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

You know as well as I do that unless you're highly specialized, IT
doesn't pay shit ... though it pays a hell of a lot more than having to live on Social Security.

If you can accumulate enough of a broad range of knowledge, you can make
your way in IT, at least in a tech-heavy area like I'm in. I started off knowing computer programming, but having some experience in accounting and picked up IT in the proess. That led to a job that was IT and Telecom, and having telecom on my resume helped throughout the late '90s and 2000s for small tech companies that needed someone to do all of the IT work that the product tech people didn't want to have to deal with.

Admittedly, I'm in one of the most tech-friendly places in the world, and
that world has changed somewhat since I started out.


... It's all more or less the same.. but it's all different now.
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Hello Kurt,

Monday August 23 2021 08:13, you wrote to me:

Admittedly, I'm in one of the most tech-friendly places in the world,
and that world has changed somewhat since I started out.

It's not easy in other parts of the country anymore for IT. They want you to be 20 years old with 30 years of experience and pay you $12 an hour for what should be double that for your work load.

In a way, I'm glad I got out of IT. I don't think that with my health being what it is that I could handle working anymore though I wish I still was.

-- Sean

... Learn from your parents' mistakes: use birth control.
--- GoldED/2 3.0.1
* Origin: Outpost BBS // bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (618:618/10)

I'd agree with that.. plus you usually need a degree in 'something'
(Basket weaving?) to get a government job which generally pays better
and has better extras than a 'real' job..

That's not true. You can get good jobs at the VA and USPS without a degree t

> pay substantially more than other jobs. There are a lot of jobs that requir
> degree, yes, but there are many jobs that do not require a degree.

I was referring to Canada, where I live regardless of the possible Tag Line. It's dangerous to generalize as I know a few people without degrees that got government jobs, but I've also seen jobs advertised where a degree would be of little use, but they stated in the ad that it is required. I suppose rather than 'education' the requirement helps weed out the total idiots, although it probably discriminated against lower income people that way as well.

Right now the USPS is hiring 100,000 people for jobs that do not require a

>degree and pay between $15-$40 an hour.

Funny (?) story.. I once decided that I wouldn't mind working for Canada Post since I enjoy outdoor stuff and walking and it was a solid job with great benefits that paid well. I went in and, with a room of other applicants,
filled out a rather long employment test. When the results came back they said they wouldn't hire me because I scored too High on the tests. They said it was likely I'd get bored too easily in the job and wouldn't stick around.

Actually several times I ran into similar things, applying for jobs and being told that if they were looking for a manager, they might be interested, but
not as a regular employee.. I should have started cheating on the I.Q. tests
so that I'd get a lower score.. B)

I once missed one job as a branch manager at a wholesale plumbing and electric place because at the last minute someone who already worked for the company decided to move there and take the job. The application process there involved long involved I.Q. and Psych tests taking hours to do and costing them
hundreds of dollars. The guy doing the hiring said he wished he could take me over the other guy, whom he wasn't too impressed with, but he was overruled. When I went in to get that news he appologized, gave me a one day shopping spree at their wholesale prices to help make up for it, and then laughed a bit and said he wanted to show me something. He dug out the results of the tests and the company giving them had said I scored so high that they strongly suspected that I had cheated. Since the guy I was applying to was in the room when I did the test he knew I couldn't have cheated so he found it amusing.

---
* SLMR Rob * Old bookkeepers never die, they just lose their balance
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (618:250/1)

I was referring to Canada, where I live regardless of the possible Tag Line. It's dangerous to generalize as I know a few people without
degrees that got government jobs, but I've also seen jobs advertised
where a degree would be of little use, but they stated in the ad that
it is required. I suppose rather than 'education' the requirement helps weed out the total idiots, although it probably discriminated against lower income people that way as well.

Here in the US, it is still quite possible to find a well-paying job that does not require a degree. There's a severe shortage of workers to fill all sorts of jobs but it seems many have no work ethic anymore, instead choosing to sit on their ass with government handouts. I would love to work if I could so I get to sit here, twiddling my thumbs.

Funny (?) story.. I once decided that I wouldn't mind working for
Canada Post since I enjoy outdoor stuff and walking and it was a solid
job with great benefits that paid well. I went in and, with a room of other applicants, filled out a rather long employment test. When the results came back they said they wouldn't hire me because I scored too High on the tests. They said it was likely I'd get bored too easily in
the job and wouldn't stick around.

I tried several times to change careers from IT but no one wanted to hire me for that very reason. So I just gave up and kept going in IT until I lost my last IT job due to my car accident in February 2019 which I believe started the process that lead me to eventually become completely disabled.

Actually several times I ran into similar things, applying for jobs and being told that if they were looking for a manager, they might be interested, but not as a regular employee.. I should have started
cheating on the I.Q. tests so that I'd get a lower score.. B)

My thing was that people were always afraid I was going to leave for another high-paying job (not that there's many of themn around here). I used to make a point of telling the interviewer that I was in the process of changing careers but that always fell on deaf ears. It became rather annoying.

Since the guy I was applying to was in
the room when I did the test he knew I couldn't have cheated so he
found it amusing.

I've had a similar situation happen at a few places as well and in the end I was passed over.

What's even more ironic for me is that I am a Schedule A person at our VA (Dept. of Veterans Affairs). What that means because I worked for them before and I am disabled, I could apply for a job and get it without an interview. They're hiring like crazy right now but due to the blood clot in the artery in my right leg (which was caused by inaction on the VA's part to help me), I am unemployable. Too much stress can cause the clot to move. Damn thing nearly killed me once so I'd better not risk it.

I haven't had any income of significance since January 2020. I'd love to start working again but it's just not possible.

-- Sean


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I tried several times to change careers from IT but no one wanted to hire me for that very reason. So I just gave up and kept going in IT until I lost my last IT job due to my car accident in February 2019 which I believe started the process that lead me to eventually become completely disabled.

[...]

My thing was that people were always afraid I was going to leave for another high-paying job (not that there's many of themn around here). I used to make a point of telling the interviewer that I was in the process of changing careers but that always fell on deaf ears. It became rather annoying.

Several years ago, I also tried to make a switch from IT to another
profession. I ran into similar issues. It only worked when I found a job
that was "something else, with IT knowledge." I liked that while it
lasted (roughly 4 years) but, after a couple of upper management changes, I have found myself shoe-horned back into doing mostly IT work in an IT
division.

Seems like once you get that mark, it is difficult to remove. :) I am planning to retire in a few years. I will be young enough that I will
still want to work part-time. I am hoping that I will not run into similar issues as I did when trying to change full-time careers.


* SLMR 2.1a * In Stereo where available. .elbaliava erehw oeretS nI
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Mike Powell wrote to SEAN DENNIS <=-

Several years ago, I also tried to make a switch from IT to another profession. I ran into similar issues. It only worked when I found a
job that was "something else, with IT knowledge." I liked that while
it lasted (roughly 4 years) but, after a couple of upper management changes, I have found myself shoe-horned back into doing mostly IT work
in an IT division.

I've gone through that also. Heck, when I went into the Army, I didn't have a degree then but the first set of orders I received out of basic training was to report to 4ID (4th Infantry HQ, then at Fort Hood, Texas) to work as a heavy equipment transport logistics tech ... usually a captain's (O-3) job but I was a private first class (E-3) doing the same thing.

Why? Someone figured out I knew Excel. This was in 1997.

Seems like once you get that mark, it is difficult to remove. :) I am planning to retire in a few years. I will be young enough that I will still want to work part-time. I am hoping that I will not run into similar issues as I did when trying to change full-time careers.

It's like having a scarlet letter. :( I am trying to see if I can work while on Social Security (though I am 'permanently unemployable', I could get back on at the VA). It all depends on several factors right now. I miss working.

-- Sean


___ MultiMail/FreeBSD v0.52

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Here in the US, it is still quite possible to find a well-paying job that doe

>not require a degree. There's a severe shortage of workers to fill all sorts
>of jobs but it seems many have no work ethic anymore, instead choosing to sit
>on their ass with government handouts. I would love to work if I could so I
>get to sit here, twiddling my thumbs.

Your situation is unfortunate and my heart goes out to you.
Personally I am pretty healthy - I'm 67 but 2 doctors have said that I would
be considered to be in excellent health if I were 20 years younger. I wouldn't say I work all that hard at it but I do have a lot of habits and hobbies and a physically harder than average lifestyle that helps keep me in decent shape.

High paying jobs.. Until 2 years ago when I went on full pension I was doing some work looking after properties for people, mowing lawns and working on cottage water systems that have to go in and out, Spring and Fall, and I was getting $35 - $45 /hr for that relatively unskilled work.
My mother has tried to find highschool kids to mow lawns and do yard work and such when I'm not available and she has trouble finding a 14 year old kid that will do that. She currently pays $30 to have her lawn cut which takes about half an hour to do.
There's definitely a lack of work ethic in younger people I think, although
one can't paint them all with the same brush I know. I think many of them are handed too much money from their parents and must get quite a shock when they have to go out and work in the real world.

For a while in my misspent youth I got fairly decent at custom painting motorcycles - necessitated by the high cost and low quality I was finding for my own bikes - and so, self taught, I started doing it for others as well and in todays dollars, I was getting about $120 /hr for my time..

But, note, that most of these 'high paying' jobs were all basically self employment. Without a university degree ralated to a job, working for others the best offer I got (in today's dollars) was about $95,000 a year but that
was after 6 years of working in a complex field - the offer coming from our main competitor. (Lab work, product developement and technical sales in the plastics industry.)

For a while I did some IT type work for individuals and small businesses
rather than a big company. I've written some commercial software but never
made any big money doing those things. I sold Real Estate when I was about 25 years old but didn't like that much either. My first jobs during and just
after school was working in various positions in a grocery store chain, and I did that job well enough to get special merit raises - the first paid in over 15 years - which also earned me threats from the union.

In the end, most would say I dropped out of society. This all occurred before the age of 32 and, at that time, I quit working for others, sold my house and moved into my summer cottage. I've since made most of my money investing
what I had managed to put together - plus that couple of thousand dollars a year doing some occasional work for others as mentioned above.

(Note.. Day Trading is lots of fun.. until it isn't..)

I think I just finally got fed up with the rat race and decided to get out..

---
* SLMR Rob * Global Village Idiot
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Re: Kids don't like scho
By: Rob Mccart to SEAN DENNIS on Thu Aug 26 2021 01:21 am

There's definitely a lack of work ethic in younger people I think, although one can't paint them all with the same brush I know. I think many of them ar handed too much money from their parents and must get quite a shock when the have to go out and work in the real world.

Often it is not money as much as the fact the family will subtly oppose any chance of the kids working really hard. A lot of parents seem to think their kids are destined to do some high paying intellectual work and will frown at them doing menial tasks for a quick buck.

They won't admit it this way, of course. But there is this silent disapproval from some parents when the kid is found looking for some quick buck when he should be trying to get his Laws degree or something.

Then parents also try to interfere. If the kid is found selling lemonade for half a dollar the glass, they will get angry because a kid as special as them should be selling it at 5 bucks.

And yes, parents giving kids too much money is an issue, but kids who have been educated to look up at entepreneurs and such are more likely to get the money and invest it in something rather than turn it into vodka. At least that is my observation.

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I think I just finally got fed up with the rat race and decided to get out..

I am getting there.

Mike


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There's definitely a lack of work ethic in younger people I think, althoug

> > one can't paint them all with the same brush I know. I think many of them
> > handed too much money from their parents and must get quite a shock when t
> > have to go out and work in the real world.
> >

Often it is not money as much as the fact the family will subtly oppose any

>chance of the kids working really hard. A lot of parents seem to think their
>kids are destined to do some high paying intellectual work and will frown at
>them doing menial tasks for a quick buck.

I guess it's a generational thing, what people expect for their children. My parents came from relatively poor, uneducated stock and got a better education while working their way through school and they, in the end, were quite successful, although not what most would call Rich.

They helped us out in emergencies but always expected us to pay our own way
and part time jobs while in school were just teaching us how to earn a living and handle money and show us that jobs could be pretty lousy if you didn't
work your way above that level.

When I got my first house, a tiny and very old place, I was glad I'd worked in a lot of areas because no way could I afford to pay someone else to re-roof
the place or fix plumbing and electrical problems, and I was driving 10 to 14 year old cars at the time, bought cheap and fixed up by myself as well.

These days it seems kids have no idea how to do any of that stuff. It possibly bodes well for the future economy, that they will be over-paying others to do all that work for them, putting money into the economy, but they'd best also hope their dreams of high paying jobs work out or they won't end up with the things they've apparently been conditioned to expect in their future.
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When I got my first house, a tiny and very old place, I was glad I'd worked in >a lot of areas because no way could I afford to pay someone else to re-roof >the place or fix plumbing and electrical problems, and I was driving 10 to 14 >year old cars at the time, bought cheap and fixed up by myself as well.

These days it seems kids have no idea how to do any of that stuff.

There are a lot of practical things that are still relevant today. Most of what I learned about cars, when I first started driving, is not. I feel
like they try really hard to make it difficult for the owner to do much to
them any more beyond very simple things like changing the air filter or
(maybe) a bulb.

Mike


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the place or fix plumbing and electrical problems, and I was driving 10 to 1

>>year old cars at the time, bought cheap and fixed up by myself as well.

These days it seems kids have no idea how to do any of that stuff.

There are a lot of practical things that are still relevant today. Most of

>what I learned about cars, when I first started driving, is not. I feel
>like they try really hard to make it difficult for the owner to do much to
>them any more beyond very simple things like changing the air filter or
>(maybe) a bulb.

True, other than fluid changes and other minor things there's not a lot you
can do yourself without a lot of special equipment today. I remember in the past tearing engines down to the block to replace manifolds and carbs or lying under the car replacing exhaust systems but those days are mostly gone.

On the plus side, now you can often go many years and many thousands of miles without a tune up, something we used to have to do usually every year and the engines now often last 2 or 3 times as many miles as they did back then.
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Re: Kids don't like scho
By: Mike Powell to ROB MCCART on Sun Aug 29 2021 01:21 pm

There are a lot of practical things that are still relevant today. Most of what I learned about cars, when I first started driving, is not. I feel like they try really hard to make it difficult for the owner to do much to them any more beyond very simple things like changing the air filter or (maybe) a bulb.

Not only that but you need special tools for everything. That's if you can find what you're looking for. You know it needs a new starter but where the hell is it! ;-)

|03 HusTler
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Not only that but you need special tools for everything. That's if you can find what you're looking for. You know it needs a new starter but where the hell is it! ;-)

My friend's dad has a 90s model Corvette ZR1 and to change the spark plugs, you have to jack the front of the car up, remove both front tires and use a special socket on a loooooong 3/8 drive extension to change the plugs. To contrast, I had a '94 Honda Civic coupe that I just opened the hood and all four plugs were right there in front, easy to get to. I once changed the plugs in an Autozone parking lot in Marietta, Georgia, with my then-wife sitting in the car. I think it took me about 10 minutes total from start to finish.

I recently read this: "40 years ago, a car's owner's manual showed how to adjust the valves. Today, a car's owner's manual has warnings about not to drink the contents of the car's battery."

Another quip: "If we all used cursive and drove stickshifts, we'd lose an entire generation [or two]". :D

-- Sean

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Sean Dennis wrote to Steve Wolf <=-

My friend's dad has a 90s model Corvette ZR1 and to change the spark plugs, you have to jack the front of the car up, remove both front
tires and use a special socket on a loooooong 3/8 drive extension to change the plugs.

My best friend in high school had a L82 '77 'vette. It was a bit of a dog (this was the late '70s, malaise era in Detroit, I think it made 180 horsepower. My 2002 Camry put out that much with a 3.0 liter V6...)

He was a stickler for plugs, and used a specific brand, I think high-end nippondenso plugs. He'd gone to a local shop and replaced them every 30K.

After a couple of years, he went somewhere else, and when they did a tuneup, called him in to take a look. They showed him the plugs they'd changed, and there were 6 Nippondenso plugs nicely glazed and 2 AC/Delco plugs carbonized to a crisp.

The local shop hadn't bothered changing the back 2 plugs.

To contrast, I had a '94 Honda Civic coupe that I
just opened the hood and all four plugs were right there in front, easy
to get to. I once changed the plugs in an Autozone parking lot in Marietta, Georgia, with my then-wife sitting in the car. I think it
took me about 10 minutes total from start to finish.

My 2014 Prius requires that you take the windshield wipers and tray off to
get to the plugs. I'd lamented that if they turned the block 90 degrees the other way that plugs would be a 10 minute job.

Another quip: "If we all used cursive and drove stickshifts, we'd lose
an entire generation [or two]". :D

I saw a sticker on a car with an icon of a gear shift pattern with the label "millenial anti-theft device".

I'm looking for a new car, interested in a couple of Subarus. They still
make a stickshift Outback and Impreza, I should try one out to see if I
still have it. I learned how to drive stick on the hills of San Francisco.
:)


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Hello, Kurt!

Replying to a message of Kurt Weiske to Sean Dennis:

The local shop hadn't bothered changing the back 2 plugs.

That doesn't surprise me one bit. Anytime I have to take a vehicle to the mechanic, I always double-check the work even if I trust them.

My 2014 Prius requires that you take the windshield wipers and tray
off to get to the plugs. I'd lamented that if they turned the block
90 degrees the other way that plugs would be a 10 minute job.

That's weird. My '95 Pathfinder needs its anti-knock sensor changed and the damn thing is in between the back of the engine block and the firewall. The sensor is $85 but the labor is $400 as you have to take the entire intake system off of the top of the engine block. Doing so exposes all of the injectors so I am waiting to have that done when I can toss in an extra $400 and just have all of the injectors changed at the same time.

I miss my '76 Chevette. Everything was great to get to on that car.

I saw a sticker on a car with an icon of a gear shift pattern with the label "millenial anti-theft device".

I've seen that too. <G>

I'm looking for a new car, interested in a couple of Subarus. They
still make a stickshift Outback and Impreza, I should try one out to
see if I still have it. I learned how to drive stick on the hills of
San Francisco. :)

I would love to get an Impreza in a stick. VW also makes a few models with six-speed sticks as basic options with the Golf Sport Wagon being my favorite. Nissan offers a few vehicles as sticks like my 2016 Versa was ... and the 350Z of course. I don't think any of the US manufacturers offer any non-sports cars as stickshift anymore which is sad.

I personally prefer a stickshift but with the way my health is going, I don't know if I will physically be able to go through the motions much longer ... we'll see.

Later,
Sean

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Re: Re: Kids don't like scho
By: Kurt Weiske to Sean Dennis on Thu Sep 02 2021 07:17 am

I saw a sticker on a car with an icon of a gear shift pattern with the label "millenial anti-th
device".

Auto transmission seems to be mainly a murican thing. We Spaniards use sticks for the most part.
Using auto transmission is an eccentricity, or nearly so :-)

I personally like being in control of the gears. It comes handy when going downhill as not to burn
your brakes.


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My friend's dad has a 90s model Corvette ZR1 and to change the spark plugs, y

>have to jack the front of the car up, remove both front tires and use a speci
>socket on a loooooong 3/8 drive extension to change the plugs.

I can go one better.. the mid 70's American Motors Gremlin X 8 cylinder said right in the manual that you had to pull the engine to change the rear plugs. Some clever sorts figured out that you could remove the wheels and cut a small hole in the fender wells and get at the rear plugs that way.

I never had a Gremlin, although for a while I had an AM Hornet, which was a Gremlin with a trunk, but my most memorable car was my 575 HP '66 Chevelle SS. It cost a fortune to keep it on the road but at least everything was pretty easy to get at.

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Arelor wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

I personally like being in control of the gears. It comes handy when
going downhill as not to burn your brakes.

I drive a Prius; I've gotten used to lightly riding the brakes - it uses the regenerative braking system to charge tbe battery when you do so. Hit the brakes a little harder and the physical brakes come into play.

I live on the coast with a mountain[1] range between me and my workplace. I get a couple of miles for "free" when coming down the other side of the
hill in my Prius. When I drive a non-hybrid, I think what a waste it is to have all of that energy turned into heat.



[1] 1700 feet, more of a hill...
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I would love to get an Impreza in a stick. VW also makes a few models wit six-speed sticks as basic options with the Golf Sport Wagon being my favorite. Nissan offers a few vehicles as sticks like my 2016 Versa was . and the 350Z of course. I don't think any of the US manufacturers offer a non-sports cars as stickshift anymore which is sad.

I got the VW Jetta in a stick, not very happy with it. Right after Dieselgate 2019 I guess thier answer was to fit a 3000lb car with a 1.4 liter and turbo it to make up for the lame displacement. anyways long story short the manual transmission model canot start on a steep enough hill. Ended up frying a
clutch tring to keep it between stalling and spinning tires in San Fran.

I leave it sit until its paid off then I sell. Meanwhile drive the 20year old Ford/Mazda grandma left me.

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Lux wrote to Sean Dennis <=-

I got the VW Jetta in a stick, not very happy with it. Right after Dieselgate 2019 I guess thier answer was to fit a 3000lb car with a 1.4 liter and turbo it to make up for the lame displacement. anyways long story short the manual transmission model canot start on a steep enough hill. Ended up frying a clutch tring to keep it between stalling and spinning tires in San Fran.

My Versa with its 1.8l engine did nicely on hills though I did have a
tendency to smoke the clutch a little now and again on a notoriously steep
side street in Greeneville. Now that I have a power scooter, I am going to have to get a larger vehicle which more than likely be an automatic which I
am not too happy about.

When I have my own place where I can have more than one cark, I'll get a stickshift as I don't need the power scooter constantly.

-- Sean

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The Chevy volt has a paddle switch on the steering wheel that you hold for magnetic brakes. Was great on this ride to work I had over a mountain you use battery and generator getting up it. Then on the way back down your almost full battery by the bottom of the hill from mashing that button most of the time.

<

/s



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When I have my own place where I can have more than one cark, I'll get a stickshift as I don't need the power scooter constanty

Can't you just put the trailer hitch on almost any car and park that thing on the fold out platform in the back?

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Lux wrote to Sean Dennis <=-

Can't you just put the trailer hitch on almost any car and
park that thing on the fold out platform in the back?

No. The vehicle has to be rated as qualifed by the power scooter
manufacturer and not all vehicles can haul it. The scooter lift alone is
over 500 pounds and requires a Class III hitch.

I'll more than likely get a full size pickup/van now that I am using a power scooter.

-- Sean

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Ahh, the things you learn.
Figured any car would be up for the challenge.
But then again other then what im driving now I have always had large sedans.



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