• How come such strange questions?

    From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to All on Mon Feb 7 09:25:28 2022
    Hello, all.

    Native speakers have frequenly corrected my questions worded
    like "How to stroke a cat?", saying that this is not a com-
    plete sentence, but a phrase, which may work only without a
    question mark as a title to a chapter in the cat man page.

    What say you, then, to the following question from Dunsany's
    "King of Elfland's Daughter" -- the most poetic work of
    prose about the Good people (followed closely by Machen's
    "The White People"):

    Sorrowfully then that parliament of Erl saw that their
    plans to have a magic lord had failed; they were all
    old men, and the hope that they had had for so long
    being gone they turned less easily to newer plans than
    they had to the plan that they made so long ago. What
    should they do now, they said? How come by magic?
    What could they do that the world should remember Erl?
    Twelve old men without magic. They sat there over
    their mead, and it could not lighten their sadness.

    If "How to come by magic?" is not grammatical, why "How come
    by magic?" is? How explain this difference?

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Anton Shepelev on Sun Feb 6 23:54:58 2022
    Hi, Anton -- on Feb 07 2022 at 09:25, you wrote:

    If "How to come by magic?" is not grammatical, why "How come by
    magic?" is? How explain this difference?

    First of all, the text you've quoted is a) old, b) fiction, c) deliberately (imo) written to sound mysterious and d) "How come by magic" is not grammatically correct.

    I think you're causing yourself grief by using these old texts and trying to explain them using modern grammar.


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Wed Feb 9 19:52:23 2022
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    Native speakers have frequenly corrected my questions
    worded like "How to stroke a cat?", saying that this
    is not a complete sentence [...].


    AFAIK I wasn't there, so I can only guess what was going on. But a couple of ideas come to mind in this particular case:

    1. Not everyone agrees about what a sentence is. Miss Stickler
    would have insisted it have a subject & a predicate, which means the subject
    of an imperative sentence is "you (understood)". Nowadays a sentence may be
    defined as a complete thought... in which case far less mental gear-grinding
    is expected of the hapless student. If s/he can't figure out why "Stop!" is
    a sentence but "Whoa!" isn't I understand where such people are coming from.

    2. It appears to me that when some author writes "But how to do
    this seemingly impossible task?" s/he is often reporting on what a character
    is thinking. And even Miss Stickler can't control my thoughts... [chuckle].



    What say you, then, to the following question from
    Dunsany's "King of Elfland's Daughter" --


    First, I might say that if you ever visit our home in Canada you'll probably hear things like "douse the glim". While I don't expect everyone to understand such antiquated language, I have no doubt you would. I don't mind "what say you" if you don't mind "what sayest thou". AFAIC it is not only my way of playing with the language but also of honouring the contribution of my distant ancestors, who made a mixture of languages a thing of beauty.... :-)



    What should they do now, they said?
    How come by magic?


    The grammar here didn't make any more sense to me than it did to you ... until I tried substituting a comma for the first question mark. I think a few quotation marks would also help the reader understand the author's intent.



    Twelve old men without magic.


    By Miss Stickler's reckoning that's not a complete sentence.... :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)