I saw a discussion over on the Unix board where folks were mentioning their first experiences with computers at school, and access to some other classes like typing.

I was thinking about how lucky I was -- without realizing it at the time of course -- to go to a public school that offered so many classes that weren't focused on academics.

We had worthwhile home-ec (where you actually learned by doing for cooking, food safety, balancing a budget, cleaning)... all manner of shop classes -- I took auto, metal and wood shop classes -- we had typing and programming classes too, and teachers who'd stay after school for hours encouraging and helping you.

This was in the mid-1990s and it's still wild to me to think that they let 16 years old's drive their 20 year old 4500lb domestic beasts into a repair bay, put them up on a 2-post lift, and do actual work in a semi-supervised environment (I think we had a 10 kids and 1 instructor, there were two lifts, and if you weren't working on a car you were working on a small engine).

In high school I spent hours after school working in the Mac lab which was filled with Centris 610's -- we were learning on Think Pascal and would travel around to different HS programming competitions (most of the time it was a team of 4 selected and we'd pile into the teacher's LeSabre on a weekend and he'd drive us an hour to a nearby college hosting the event). We'd also have what seemed like epic Bolo matches with a dozen or so people playing.

I look at what the same school system offers now and it's pretty depressing -- the town has stayed socio-economically similar, but the classes now are focused almost entirely on academic work, geared toward testing, and they don't have a single shop class left other than a solitary robotics offering.

I wonder what killed shop class? Focusing on ranking / test scores? Bubble-wrapping kids' school lives? Sucking the joy/benefits out of transitioning from trades to education leaving the schools filled with only career educators who went from college to teaching without gaining any real world experience?

---
■ Synchronet ■ ___Path_Unknown___

Re: Old School
By: Dux to All on Thu Jan 02 2025 11:42 pm

I wonder what killed shop class? Focusing on ranking / test scores?

Budget cuts. No matter how bad other parts of government are, schools are always the first to get defunded when it doesn't look like there will be enough money.

---
■ Synchronet ■ TIRED of waiting 2 hours for a taco? GO TO TACOPRONTO.bbs.io

Re: Old School
By: Dux to All on Thu Jan 02 2025 11:42 pm

I was thinking about how lucky I was -- without realizing it at the time of course -- to go to a public school that offered so many classes that weren't focused on academics.

We had worthwhile home-ec (where you actually learned by doing for cooking, food safety, balancing a budget, cleaning)... all manner of shop classes -- I took auto, metal and wood shop classes -- we had typing and programming classes too, and teachers who'd stay after school for hours encouraging and helping you.

This was in the mid-1990s and it's still wild to me to think that they let 16 years old's drive their 20 year old 4500lb domestic beasts into a repair bay, put them up on a 2-post lift, and do actual work in a semi-supervised environment (I think we had a 10 kids and 1 instructor, there were two

you're lucky. i went to hs and was done in 95.
They didn't have that at my highschool. They had a shop class but they didn't do much. in middle school we had home ec and shop class. in home ec we just cooked a few things. We had sewing as well. I can not remember how to thread a sewing machine. We didn't learn how to balance a budget or anything.

i think what downscaled or eliminated a lot of those courses are insurance reasons. kids got hurt in shop and even in home ec with sewing.

In high school I spent hours after school working in the Mac lab which was filled with Centris 610's -- we were learning on Think Pascal and would travel around to different HS programming competitions (most of the time it was a team of 4 selected and we'd pile into the teacher's LeSabre on a weekend and he'd drive us an hour to a nearby college hosting the event).

we had computer courses in iigs. nothing serious and no programming.
we just typed up assignments.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Dux wrote to All <=-

I wonder what killed shop class? Focusing on ranking / test scores? Bubble-wrapping kids' school lives? Sucking the joy/benefits out of transitioning from trades to education leaving the schools filled with only career educators who went from college to teaching without gaining any real world experience?

Some of what was said earlier is true. I graduated high school back in '81.
We had building construction, Ag shop, regular shop, drafting, beauty, and computer class. Also home ec and automotive. We had to program in Pascal and type them on a punched card and run it though a reader.

I taught in small East Texas schools in the late 90's early 2000's and you still had ag shop, home ec, automotive and computer class. They all were watered down from what we did in the 80's. Computer class was mostly excel
and word.

I was a history, econ and gov't teacher and in my econ class, I had a guy
from a car dealership and a realtor come in and spoke to the seniors
about buying a car and a house. We also did a checkbook exercise to learn
how to open an account and keep up with finances. This was nnot in the TEKS
at the time. I don't know it is now. I haven't been in a classroom in 15 or
so years.

---
Grease (Will)
HobbyNet: 954:200/56 FSXnet: 21:2/155
HealthNet: 999:1/6
tqwNet: 1337:3/208





... Please don't ask me what the score is. I'm not even sure what the game is. --- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
■ Synchronet ■ Synchronet | Dark Matter BBS | darkmatt.synchro.net | Kurten, TX.

Re: Old School
By: Dux to All on Thu Jan 02 2025 11:42 pm

I wonder what killed shop class?

I always assumed it was insurance issues...

---
■ Synchronet ■ TIRED of waiting 2 hours for a taco? GO TO TACOPRONTO.bbs.io

Re: Re: Old School
By: Grease to Dux on Fri Jan 03 2025 11:07 am

Some of what was said earlier is true. I graduated high school back in '81. We had building construction, Ag shop, regular shop, drafting, beauty, and computer class. Also home ec and automotive. We had to program in Pascal and type them on a punched card and run it though a reader.

I taught in small East Texas schools in the late 90's early 2000's and you still had ag shop, home ec, automotive and computer class. They all were watered down from what we did in the 80's. Computer class was mostly excel and word.

I was a history, econ and gov't teacher and in my econ class, I had a guy from a car dealership and a realtor come in and spoke to the seniors
about buying a car and a house. We also did a checkbook exercise to learn how to open an account and keep up with finances. This was nnot in the TEKS at the time. I don't know it is now. I haven't been in a classroom in 15 or

haha i did not get that experience.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Dux wrote to All <=-

We had worthwhile home-ec (where you actually learned by doing for cooking, food safety, balancing a budget, cleaning)... all manner of
shop classes -- I took auto, metal and wood shop classes -- we had
typing and programming classes too, and teachers who'd stay after
school for hours encouraging and helping you.

I was the guy there who said I wished I'd taken auto shop and typing. To
get access to tools and lifts for free to work on your own car on your
time would have been amazing.

This was back in the 1980s, when silicon valley still manufactured
electronics. We had an electronics lab where people learned about logic circuits, LEDs, breadboards and made basic circuits in high school.

I look at what the same school system offers now and it's pretty depressing -- the town has stayed socio-economically similar, but the classes now are focused almost entirely on academic work, geared toward testing, and they don't have a single shop class left other than a solitary robotics offering.

I wonder what killed shop class? Focusing on ranking / test scores? Bubble-wrapping kids' school lives? Sucking the joy/benefits out of transitioning from trades to education leaving the schools filled with only career educators who went from college to teaching without gaining any real world experience?

Government driving the economy through an education bubble driven by
grants and loans, driving the cost of tuition sky high?





--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

I saw a discussion over on the Unix board where folks were mentioning their first experiences with computers at school, and access to some
other classes like typing.

In my school district, we had all Apple II hardwares. I believe in much later years they had some Macintosh boxes and then the PCs came in high school - but I learned all on ProDOS and Turtle, with a dash of Oregon Trail. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

Re: Old School
By: MRO to Dux on Fri Jan 03 2025 05:23:22

didn't do much. in middle school we had home ec and shop class. in home ec we just cooked a few things. We had sewing as well. I can not remember how to thread a sewing machine. We didn't learn how to balance a budget or anything.

I vividly remember that class -- we had to make pasta, bake brownies or cookies from scratch, cook chicken/beef and check the temp, use the two-tub method to clean dishes, scrub the sink after, etc... for the sewing portion you had two options for what you could make: pillows or a rifle case...

we had computer courses in iigs. nothing serious and no programming.
we just typed up assignments.

Middle school we used Logo and Applesoft Basic on the //e's -- I think the iigs had a few interesting things like a handscanner and a TV camera interface (w/ QVGA resolution and horrible color).

High school was all Think Pascal because that's what our computer teacher was most familiar with, they had replaced the IBM typewriters by that point with IBM PS/2s which were used exclusively for typing and business applications, which was a shame because there were a lot of other opportunities but I recall they had no one to really deal with those so time in those labs was pretty sparse.

Knock wood I can't think of a single injury from the shop classes other than one idiot who used to see how far back he could lean the shop stools before he tipped over... we even had a huge oxyacetylene torch to liquify rusty bolts and managed no burns to our bodies or retinas.

I don't mean to dump on how it is today, as a parent I know we've got different problems today, but it was honestly a different era back then -- By age 11 or so school ended at 1:30-3:00, my parents were home by 6:00 best case, I had to get home, make myself food, and figure out what to do with myself... and those nudie GIF files took forever at 2400bps.

---
■ Synchronet ■ ___Path_Unknown___

Re: Old School
By: Dux to All on Thu Jan 02 2025 11:42 pm

I wonder what killed shop class? Focusing on ranking / test scores?

I suspect it was not profitable for the school. Real workshops are expensive to keep. Also, interest in trades is vanishing among young people.

My high-school had tons of well equiped workshops, but that is because the center was designed to be a trade training center and academic plans were an afterthought. They had engine labs and electronics labs and whatever have you because back in the day they trained professionals to fix engines and radios.

The advantage is if you were taking academic studies instead of learning a trade you would still get access to the labs from time to time. Designing a PCB on a piece of paper is nice, building it in a lab is golden. Watching the bully asshole get splashed with boric acid because he didn't follow safety instructions is priceless.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Old School
By: Bf2k+ to Dux on Fri Jan 03 2025 09:52 am

I wonder what killed shop class?

I always assumed it was insurance issues...

Dunno about that. Maybe.

People in high-school age all want to be bloggers and youtubers and they all take academic paths if given the option. You never see any youngster hoping to be an electrician anymore, so my hypothesis is there is not much interest in workshop-style work.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Old School
By: Dux to All on Thu Jan 02 2025 11:42 pm

I was thinking about how lucky I was -- without realizing it at the time of course -- to go to a public school that offered so many classes that weren't focused on academics.

It was nice, I had the same experience. We called them 'vocational' classes, and my main choice was auto body repair (because I liked cars). I spend three periods per day in that class banging out dents, sanding, painting, etc. It was fun. Never got into that industry but at least I learned things.

We had worthwhile home-ec (where you actually learned by doing for cooking, food safety, balancing a budget, cleaning)... all manner of shop classes -- I took auto, metal and wood shop classes -- we had typing and programming classes too, and teachers who'd stay after school for hours encouraging and helping you.

Same. except I never took home-ec. Metal shop, wood shop, electronics, drafting, all just typical 'elective' classes.

In high school I spent hours after school working in the Mac lab which was filled with Centris 610's -- we were learning on Think Pascal and would travel around to different HS programming competitions (most of the time it was a team of 4 selected and we'd pile into the teacher's LeSabre on a weekend and he'd drive us an hour to a nearby college hosting the event). We'd also have what seemed like epic Bolo matches with a dozen or so people playing.

We had a photography club (a science teacher, about 5 kids and a darkroom) and it was great. Learned how to develop film, etc. I finished high school in 1982, so not much for computers for me. Apple computers were just coming into the school as I was leaving, but my father was an engineer and got me into a weekly thing for teens at Honeywell messing with Multics and CP-5. That was my real first experience in computers. Fun!

I wonder what killed shop class? Focusing on ranking / test scores?

I really don't know, but my daugher went to the same schools that I did, so I got to visit there in the 2000s. All the vocational facilities were just empty, or offices or something. Not much offerred. I wish she could have experienced what I did in school.
---
■ Synchronet ■ RetroBBS - retrobbs.ddns.net

Re: Re: Old School
By: paulie420 to Dux on Fri Jan 03 2025 18:52:00

In my school district, we had all Apple II hardwares. I believe in much later years they had some Macintosh boxes and then the PCs came in high

Apple saw the opportunity in education and really dominated those sales in the 80s and 90s. I guess PC was just seen as too complex for that demographic.

At some point in the late 90s -- probably w/ Jobs' return -- Apple leaned hard into to focusing on the creative types. Now based on the 'Apple Intelligence' commercials I see they're focusing on bored office workers who are trying to skate through their work days...

The 'PC is too hard' thing reminds me, my parents sent me a nerd-camp at a local college when I was in elementary school and middle school -- the modeled it after college, you'd sign up for classes and move through the day between them... thigs like building/launching model rockets, playing D&D -- my favorite aspect was the programming. The college had a brand new building dedicated to computer science. We'd sit air conditioned labs working on IBM 5150's to create programs in GW-BASIC, at the end of each session we'd print out our program and a sample run on 11x17 green bar tractor paper to bring home, and save it to a 5.25" floppy we were assigned, at the end of each summer we'd bring the floppy home -- I probably still have a couple of them kicking around.

I'll admit we were all nerds, but if they could manage to get 20 4th graders to boot PCs, open GW-BASIC, and build simple programs it couldn't have been /that/ bad...

---
■ Synchronet ■ ___Path_Unknown___

Re: Old School
By: Arelor to Bf2k+ on Sat Jan 04 2025 09:06 am

Dunno about that. Maybe.

People in high-school age all want to be bloggers and youtubers and they all take academic paths if given the option. You never see any youngster hoping to be an electrician anymore, so my hypothesis is there is not much interest in workshop-style work.

--

i have worked in mfg for 29 years. i've gone all the way in the spectrum from being a boss and having an office to running ancient machines.

I was not prepared to go into the work force in any way. Manufacturing isn't idiot work, either. There is a lot of the line and you have to have skills and be knowledgeable. You need a lot of soft skills.

School did none of that for me. I raised my son to an adult and my step daughter to an adult. I could see they were not being prepared too. I just told them to focus on math because that can help you through life.

From what i've personaly seen is kids are leaving highschool now thinking they are going to be a million dollar youtuber. before it was basketball player
and a few other things. Now they think people will want to see them shoot stupid videos or make twitch game streams. it's now ok for girls to show pics of their butthole for 2.99 a month on onlyfans.

it's just a sad situation for lower middle class kids nowadays.
children should be going to a trade school while still going to regular school. just cut out sociology and gym.

I wish i knew then what i know now. There's some certs you can get where you can still get a job with a pension and barely do anything.
---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

The 'PC is too hard' thing reminds me, my parents sent me a nerd-camp at
a local college when I was in elementary school and middle school -- the modeled it after college, you'd sign up for classes and move through the day between them...
We'd sit air conditioned labs working on IBM 5150's to create programs in Du> GW-BASIC, at the end of each session we'd print out our program and a Du> sample run on 11x17 green bar tractor paper to bring home, and save it to Du> a 5.25" floppy we were assigned, at the end of each summer we'd bring the Du> floppy home

LOL - That sounds like something I'd of loved... while I had access to a 5150, and then jumped into clones at my own house, I missed the programming bit until a lot later. Started w/ games, moved over to PD BBSing - then pirate BBSing, hacking, other activities and THEN programming by necessity. :P

I think the other way around might have been a better road.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

Arelor wrote to Dux <=-

My high-school had tons of well equiped workshops, but that is because
the center was designed to be a trade training center and academic
plans were an afterthought. They had engine labs and electronics labs
and whatever have you because back in the day they trained
professionals to fix engines and radios.

Around here in California, that seems to have moved to the junior
college level. There are JCs that are intended as a place for people to
get their lower-division classes done in a cheaper, easier to enter
environment, with some assurances that classes will transfer 1:1 into
the university of California system.

Some of the other colleges have trade certificatations - I took a photo
class at Laney college in Oakland, and walking around saw classrooms
with HVAC systems hanf-apart, another classroom with those full-head
hair dryers, and another one with a metal shop. Great news if you could
learn a trade for $20 a semester unit.

The advantage is if you were taking academic studies instead of
learning a trade you would still get access to the labs from time to
time. Designing a PCB on a piece of paper is nice, building it in a lab
is golden. Watching the bully asshole get splashed with boric acid
because he didn't follow safety instructions is priceless.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Arelor wrote to Bf2k+ <=-

People in high-school age all want to be bloggers and youtubers and
they all take academic paths if given the option. You never see any youngster hoping to be an electrician anymore, so my hypothesis is
there is not much interest in workshop-style work.

True, but back in the 1980s when I went to school, cars were simple.
Carbs, points, distributors, voltage regulators. No computers. You could
buy a bitchin' 1970s Camaro and spend your free time with it on the
lift, doing all sorts of work you couldn't do in your driveway - and
with access to a killer set of tools.




--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Retro Guy wrote to Dux <=-

We had a photography club (a science teacher, about 5 kids and a
darkroom) and it was great. Learned how to develop film, etc. I
finished high school in 1982, so not much for computers for me.

1983 here, my senior year was the first time I programmed on a
computer. We had a lab with several Commodore CBM machines and wrote a
ton of BASIC.

I wish we had a photo club, I would have loved to get into photography
early. It wasn't until later, when I'd been into photography for
several years that I took my first darkroom class. By that time it was
interesting learning physical techniques for things we take for granted
in digital photography.



--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

paulie420 wrote to Dux <=-

LOL - That sounds like something I'd of loved... while I had access to
a 5150, and then jumped into clones at my own house, I missed the programming bit until a lot later. Started w/ games, moved over to PD BBSing - then pirate BBSing, hacking, other activities and THEN programming by necessity. :P

I started off on microcomputers, but once I was in college the
multi-user systems were so much more fun - poking around places you
shouldn't, learning about the system, sending messages to other users
online, and compiling programs a helluva lot faster than on a PC. The
computer rooms were a social gathering place, people could share ideas
and pitch in for bad coffee.

That was cool for a while, then Turbo C came out and everyone went back
to coding in their rooms. The coffee was definitely better there...





--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

My high-school had tons of well equiped workshops, but that is because the center was designed to be a trade training center and academic
plans were an afterthought. They had engine labs and electronics labs and whatever have you because back in the day they trained
professionals to fix engines and radios.

Around here in California, that seems to have moved to the junior
college level. There are JCs that are intended as a place for people to
get their lower-division classes done in a cheaper, easier to enter
environment, with some assurances that classes will transfer 1:1 into
the university of California system.

In Kentucky, that would be the community colleges, although there are high schools that also still offer college credits for some things.


* SLMR 2.1a * Groundwater. Do you mean crushed ice?
---
■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

People in high-school age all want to be bloggers and youtubers and
they all take academic paths if given the option. You never see any youngster hoping to be an electrician anymore, so my hypothesis is
there is not much interest in workshop-style work.

True, but back in the 1980s when I went to school, cars were simple.
Carbs, points, distributors, voltage regulators. No computers. You could
buy a bitchin' 1970s Camaro and spend your free time with it on the
lift, doing all sorts of work you couldn't do in your driveway - and
with access to a killer set of tools.

For many years I had a 1980 Chevrolet Monte Carlo that was first purchased
in California. I hate to tell you this, but cars sold in California back
then did indeed have computers in them in order to regulate the "California emmissions" systems they had to be equiped with in order to be sold there.


* SLMR 2.1a * Reward for a job well done: more work.
---
■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

Re: Re: Old School
By: Dux to paulie420 on Sat Jan 04 2025 10:18 am

I'll admit we were all nerds, but if they could manage to get 20 4th graders to boot PCs, open GW-BASIC, and build simple programs it couldn't have been /that/ bad...

I agree.. I got experience using my dad's computers when I was growing up, and he gave me my own (hand-me-down) PC when I was 12, just after 6th grade. Aside from playing games and calling BBSes with it, I did some programming with GW-BASIC fairly soon after I got it.

Nightfox

---
■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Old School
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Sun Jan 05 2025 10:10 am

True, but back in the 1980s when I went to school, cars were simple. Carbs, points, distributors, voltage regulators. No computers. You could buy a bitchin' 1970s Camaro and spend your free time with it on the lift, doing all sorts of work you couldn't do in your driveway - and with access to a killer set of tools.

My older brother graduated high school in the mid-80s. One time, he said he and some friends did a prank on one of their teachers, which was taking apart his car enough so that they could move his car inside the school library and re-assemble it there.

Nightfox

---
■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: Old School
By: Dumas Walker to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Mon Jan 06 2025 09:01 am

In Kentucky, that would be the community colleges, although there are high schools that also still offer college credits for some things.

My kids are clamoring for AP classes because they're more "fun" than the basic classes - what they don't know yet is that senior year AP classes can be used for college credit, which makes scheduling the first year of college much easier.
---
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Re: Re: Old School
By: Dumas Walker to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Mon Jan 06 2025 09:14 am

True, but back in the 1980s when I went to school, cars were simple. Carbs,
points, distributors, voltage regulators. No computers. You could buy a
bitchin' 1970s Camaro and spend your free time with it on the lift, doing
all sorts of work you couldn't do in your driveway - and with access to a
killer set of tools.

For many years I had a 1980 Chevrolet Monte Carlo that was first purchased i California. I hate to tell you this, but cars sold in California back then did indeed have computers in them in order to regulate the "California emmissions" systems they had to be equiped with in order to be sold there.

What I meant to say was "the cars kids were driving in the 1980s. 1974 was the beginning of the malaise era in Detroit, and emission controls were a big part of that.

Most of the cool cars in 1981-1983 were pre-emissions Camaros, early Mustangs Plymouth Dusters, Chevy Chevelles and a ton of other 1960-70s american cars.
Those were simple cars at their base.

---
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Re: Re: Old School
By: Nightfox to Dux on Mon Jan 06 2025 09:47 am

I agree.. I got experience using my dad's computers when I was growing up, and he gave me my own (hand-me-down) PC when I was 12, just after 6th grade.

I went the opposite direction. When my dad retired, I built him a hand-me-down PC because he wanted to do some consulting work. He ended up discovering side-scroller games and usenet instead. :)
---
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Re: Re: Old School
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Dumas Walker on Mon Jan 06 2025 02:27 pm

Re: Re: Old School
By: Dumas Walker to POINDEXTER FORTRAN
on Mon Jan 06 2025 09:01 am

In Kentucky, that would be the community colleges, although there are high schools that also still offer college credits for some things.

My kids are clamoring for AP classes because they're more "fun" than the basic classes - what they don't know yet is that senior year AP classes can be used for college credit, which makes scheduling the first year of college much easier.

I thought I'd let you know: your message came through here with embedded ANSI escape sequences (the Re/By/On header info up there), which defeats the word/line wrap in Synchronet (we don't try to wrap ANSI-encoded messages).

Normally, DOVE-Net messages are exchanged between Synchronet systems using Ctrl-A codes (instead of ANSI) whenever possible. Can you double-check your settings in SCFG->Networks->QWK->Hubs->VERT against the instructions here:
https://wiki.synchro.net/howto:dove-net

It appears maybe you have one or more sub-boards set to convert Ctrl-A codes to ANSI upon export to QWKnet/VERT.

Thanks,
--
digital man (rob)

Rush quote #13:
Cast in this unlikely role, ill-equipped to act, with insufficient tact
Norco, CA WX: 64.0°F, 33.0% humidity, 2 mph WNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs ---
■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Digital Man wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I thought I'd let you know: your message came through here with
embedded ANSI escape sequences (the Re/By/On header info up there),
which defeats the word/line wrap in Synchronet (we don't try to wrap ANSI-encoded messages).

Normally, DOVE-Net messages are exchanged between Synchronet systems
using Ctrl-A codes (instead of ANSI) whenever possible. Can you double-check your settings in SCFG->Networks->QWK->Hubs->VERT against
the instructions here: https://wiki.synchro.net/howto:dove-net

That's odd, the hub was set to "expand", I've set it to "leave in". I
haven't touched this in some time.

Is there a preferred per-area setting? I have "export ASCII only" set to
"no" in the area configuration.





--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

In Kentucky, that would be the community colleges, although there are high schools that also still offer college credits for some things.

My kids are clamoring for AP classes because they're more "fun" than the

asic

classes - what they don't know yet is that senior year AP classes can be used for college credit, which makes scheduling the first year of college much easier.

If they are classes on topics that interest them, they sure can be more
fun. By they time our senior year came around, the only class that
directly gave college credit was Senior English and it was not known for
being fun.

OTOH, if you took other honors and above level classes and might have learned enough to earn some credits, you could then take the AP tests. I tested out
of college history that way. OTOH, another test I took turned out to be
one that the local uni wouldn't honor the credits for because it would have meant testing out of 6 hours worth of classes which cut into their profits.

IIRC, that was also English.


* SLMR 2.1a * It's as easy as 3.14159265358979323846...
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Re: Re: Old School
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Digital Man on Tue Jan 07 2025 06:46 am

That's odd, the hub was set to "expand", I've set it to "leave in". I haven't touched this in some time.

I just noticed the lack of word-wrapping of your message and that's what lead to my determination it was ANSI sequences.

Is there a preferred per-area setting? I have "export ASCII only" set to "no" in the area configuration.

That's fine - we want extended ASCII (CP437 or UTF-8) in DOVE-Net! :-)

I think the main "per area" settings recommended are limiting access to the SYNCDATA sub and the Sysops-only subs. Those are covered here: https://wiki.synchro.net/network:dove-net#conferences
--
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Re: Re: Old School
By: Dumas Walker to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Mon Jan 06 2025 09:01:00

In Kentucky, that would be the community colleges, although there are high schools that also still offer college credits for some things.

All the talk about junior colleges, community colleges, and voc schools -- something that dried up in my area decades ago was affordable trade classes...

You wanted to learn welding basics, metal working, household electrical work, etc, there were 2-3 month long classes that would meet 1-2x week at night and you'd pay a couple of hundred bucks, maybe a bit more.

Those don't seem to exist around here anymore -- and haven't for a long time because I can remember seeing them when I was kid at 10-15 in the "community education" fliers we'd get, but by the time I was 25-30 those were gone. The best you could get was to sign up for a certificate series which was often several thousand dollars or more.

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Re: Re: Old School
By: Dumas Walker to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Mon Jan 06 2025 09:14:00

I hate to tell you this, but cars sold in California back
then did indeed have computers in them in order to regulate the "California emmissions" systems they had to be equiped with in order to be sold there.

...and about a mile of vaccuum hoses too.

I have a late 70s domestic car I keep around, it's not as bad as the 80s versions but still has plenty of emissions/mileage stuff. Once they got into air/smog pumps it really started to go wild under the hood. In some ways a modern vehicle is actually simplier because computers and electronic solenoids aren't as complex as the vaccuum controlled systems.

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You wanted to learn welding basics, metal working, household electrical work, etc, there were 2-3 month long classes that would meet 1-2x week at night and you'd pay a couple of hundred bucks, maybe a bit more.

Those don't seem to exist around here anymore -- and haven't for a long time because I can remember seeing them when I was kid at 10-15 in the "community education" fliers we'd get, but by the time I was 25-30 those were gone. The best you could get was to sign up for a certificate series which was often several thousand dollars or more.

Not sure it is the whole reason, but part of the reason could be that
unions don't want any additional competition from shade tree welders or electrical handymen, i.e. people who might do these things on the side
without proper certification or appreticeship but also without paying union dues.


* SLMR 2.1a * sophisticated, adj. deprived of its native simplicity.
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...and about a mile of vaccuum hoses too.

I have a late 70s domestic car I keep around, it's not as bad as the 80s versions but still has plenty of emissions/mileage stuff. Once they got into air/smog pumps it really started to go wild under the hood. In some ways a modern vehicle is actually simplier because computers and electronic

olenoids

aren't as complex as the vaccuum controlled systems.

Yeah, I can remember something happening with the car one time where I knew
it was a hose problem (from experience) but I was not able to find which
hose was causing it. It was one that was semi-hidden under and behind some things over the back of the engine.

There were the "usual suspect" hoses, but that one was a new one. ;)


* SLMR 2.1a * How come wrong numbers are never busy???
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Re: Re: Old School
By: Dumas Walker to DUX on Wed Jan 08 2025 09:16 am

it was a hose problem (from experience) but I was not able to find which hose was causing it. It was one that was semi-hidden under and behind some things over the back of the engine.

There were the "usual suspect" hoses, but that one was a new one. ;)

smoke test.
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Dux wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

Those don't seem to exist around here anymore -- and haven't for a long time because I can remember seeing them when I was kid at 10-15 in the "community education" fliers we'd get

Oh, that reminded me of the Learning Annex. Don't know if they were
around everywhere, but in the San Francisco bay area their booklets
were *everywhere*. Classes seemed a mixture of entrepreneurial, new-age
and single-mingly classes that seemed designed to facilitate hookups.
How to pole dance? How to shoot your own adult video? Kabbalah dating?

It didn't age too well, looking back - the Donald Trump Real Estate
Wealth Expo"?



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Dux wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

some ways a modern vehicle is actually simplier because computers and electronic solenoids aren't as complex as the vaccuum controlled
systems.

One of my favorite cars are early '80s Mercedes W123s - the midsized
diesel sedans and wagons. Apparently a ton of functions on the car are
powered by vacuum systems - power door locks, the transmission system,
the brake booster... Debugging the system is a nightmare, but I suppose
you could just use the mantra "follow the suck".



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Re: Re: Old School
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Dux on Wed Jan 08 2025 11:26 am

One of my favorite cars are early '80s Mercedes W123s - the midsized diesel sedans and wagons. Apparently a ton of functions on the car are powered by vacuum systems - power door locks, the transmission system, the brake booster... Debugging the system is a nightmare, but I suppose you could just use the mantra "follow the suck".

https://youtu.be/lTSWdHY9Ny4?si=PfY28S2GfsaoclNy

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Old School
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Jan 08 2025 01:08 pm

https://youtu.be/lTSWdHY9Ny4?si=PfY28S2GfsaoclNy

Always appreciate a "Spaceballs" Reference!



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Hey Dumas!

On Wed, Jan 08 2025 08:14:00 -0600, you wrote ..

Not sure it is the whole reason, but part of the reason could be
that unions don't want any additional competition from shade tree
welders or electrical handymen, i.e. people who might do these
things on the side without proper certification or appreticeship but
also without paying union dues.

FYI, and maybe this will help some people's possible handed down opinions (or just lack of first hand experience) in the future. As a union ironworker, my union dues are $42 a month. When your pay and benefits are almost 2x better than any non-union job, the dues (that I don't even write a check out for, or pay manually) goes almost unnoticed. In 18 years in the trade, I've never heard a single person complain about dues.

On the other hand, we pay like $13+ an HOUR for our health and welfare. Many people complain about that, but not dues.

Put it this way, a journeyman ironworker is billed out at like ~$75/hr (base rate) plus whatever the employer adds a percentage to it for some kind of profit, I imagine. Off the top of that, comes dues, health insurance, pension, annuity, apprenticeship training, and a few other minor things we pay into. After all of that is subtracted (by the employer, because they break down our money and pay in to all of the above mentioned stuff for us), the rest goes on our check. That check stub is also broken down completely to tell you exactly how your money was dispersed, and where.

I'm willing to bet the UAW gave people a sour taste for a long time (and by George that was 20+ years ago and the union haters are still around).

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
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Re: Re: Old School
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Dux on Wed Jan 08 2025 11:26 am

Oh, that reminded me of the Learning Annex. Don't know if they were
around everywhere, but in the San Francisco bay area their booklets
were *everywhere*. Classes seemed a mixture of entrepreneurial, new-age
and single-mingly classes that seemed designed to facilitate hookups.
How to pole dance? How to shoot your own adult video? Kabbalah dating?

uh no. they weren't in other places.
---
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Re: Re: Old School
By: Accession to All on Wed Jan 08 2025 09:59 pm

FYI, and maybe this will help some people's possible handed down opinions (or just lack of first hand experience) in the future. As a union ironworker, my union dues are $42 a month. When your pay and benefits are almost 2x better than any non-union job, the dues (that I don't even write a check out for, or pay manually) goes almost unnoticed. In 18 years in the trade, I've never heard a single person complain about dues.

On the other hand, we pay like $13+ an HOUR for our health and welfare.

Many
people complain about that, but not dues.

Put it this way, a journeyman ironworker is billed out at like ~$75/hr

(base
rate) plus whatever the employer adds a percentage to it for some kind of profit, I imagine. Off the top of that, comes dues, health insurance,

well i've been a bit of a job jumper after leaving my job of 17 years.
I've worked at places that had unions that were total dogshit. The benefits were not on par with non union companies and the progression and pay was poor.
Your experience in you union is not the norm in today's age. Especially in wisconsin where you don't even have to be in a union in a 'union shop'

There's a lot of unions that just side with the company and don't do anyting for their workers.

Sadly, things are not like they used to be.
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Re: Old School
By: Dux to All on Thu Jan 02 2025 23:42:16

I wonder what killed shop class? Focusing on ranking / test scores? Bubble-wrapping kids' school lives? Sucking the
joy/benefits out of transitioning from trades to education leaving the schools filled with only career educators who went
from college to teaching without gaining any real world experience?

In my country I don't recall it being a thing... My grandmother told me about workshop classes, but it was back in COCOM times, shortly after establishing it.

I had no real workshop class, the most workshop-like thing was making an origami swan (at home, because base curriculum is too stuffed to do it at home).
Maybe MS Office on IT classes in high school was anyhow useful, but only because we had an IT professional as a teacher, who did care and knew a lot about computers, not only IBM PCs. I wouldn't be surprised if she had sent a few messages on Fidonet when BBSes were more common.
Before, in primary and secondary, it was just Paint or making a shitty presentation in PowerPoint with a lot of animations.

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Re: Old School
By: Dux to All on Thu Jan 02 2025 11:42 pm

I always assumed it was insurance issues...

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I figured it was liability considerations as well.

telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23
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Madison,NC

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1983 here, my senior year was the first time I programmed on a
computer. We had a lab with several Commodore CBM machines and wrote a
ton of BASIC.

I wish we had a photo club, I would have loved to get into photography
early. It wasn't until later, when I'd been into photography for
several years that I took my first darkroom class. By that time it was
interesting learning physical techniques for things we take for granted
in digital photography.

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I learned BASIC in 1984 on a trs80 model 3 and enjoyed it. Computers and reading books saved me from a lot of frustration and isolation back then. I was born with albinism in my eyes so sports and other shop classes were out. The nerds became my extended family and provided the wheels I needed to get around. I really enjoyed the library club and computer shop. I hope today's youth
still have some thing they can focus on to build their minds. I always wanted to be in the FFA, but never had enough time after the computer club or library club. I love growing things. I like this thread a lot, thank you.

telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23
http://ricksbbs.synchro.net:8080
Madison,NC

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Hi Accession,
In a message to All you wrote:

union ironworker, my union dues are $42 a month. When your pay and
benefits are almost 2x better than any non-union job, the dues (that I don't even write a check out for, or pay manually) goes almost

Not going to go into too many details here, but I have personally seen
wages and benefits go DOWN after union's came in. Most recently last
year, people went from $24 an hour to $19.60 an hour and benefits while
on par with what the company had offered were twice as expensive as here
in Canada a union is a FOR PROFIT business.

The last union I was forced into back in the 90's, I went from $9.50 an
hour to $6.85 an hour. Plus I had to pay union dues of $22 every 2 weeks.

Those were some $$$$$$ union dues when you make $6.85 an hour. That company went out of business 6 months after the union came in, they didn't have any employees left.

I'm not anti-union, but I don't believe they should be a for profit business.

Shawn

... It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.


* SeM. 2.26 * From the Dirty Shwa
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Hey Mro!

On Wed, Jan 08 2025 22:44:38 -0600, you wrote ..

well i've been a bit of a job jumper after leaving my job of 17
years. I've worked at places that had unions that were total
dogshit. The benefits were not on par with non union companies and
the progression and pay was poor. Your experience in you union is
not the norm in today's age. Especially in wisconsin where you
don't even have to be in a union in a 'union shop'

There's a lot of unions that just side with the company and don't do
anyting for their workers.

Sadly, things are not like they used to be.

I believe it, however, there's a huge difference between factory/shop unions (which can even include sitting on an assembly line packaging cheese, ffs) and construction trade unions.

Either way, this was brought up because of dues and the negativity behind them. Were any dues you ever paid ever a burden on you in your line of work? Because in any construction trade, they are basically unnoticeable.

Compare it to a financial advisor taking a small percentage from your funds, for taking care of your money for you. Nobody complains about that. :)

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
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Hey Tiny!

On Thu, Jan 09 2025 05:20:35 -0600, you wrote ..

Not going to go into too many details here, but I have personally
seen wages and benefits go DOWN after union's came in. Most
recently last year, people went from $24 an hour to $19.60 an hour
and benefits while on par with what the company had offered were
twice as expensive as here in Canada a union is a FOR PROFIT
business.

I'm guessing this was a factory/shop union also? You can blame the UAW for messing it up for the rest of the factories/shops and adding, if not creating people's sour taste of unions. :)

The last union I was forced into back in the 90's, I went from $9.50
an hour to $6.85 an hour. Plus I had to pay union dues of $22 every
2 weeks.

That's ridiculous, but then again, that was back in the 90s.

Those were some $$$$$$ union dues when you make $6.85 an hour. That
company went out of business 6 months after the union came in, they
didn't have any employees left.

I agree, it's completely different when your wages aren't even enough to live off of (even for the 90s). But, I'm also happy to hear they went under and are no longer. THAT is definitely not my definition of a good union.

I'm not anti-union, but I don't believe they should be a for profit
business.

I don't know about factories, but in my line of work they kind of have to be. They are an all around 'company' who provides the manpower to the companies that are signatory to the union. They also manage our money, take care of our benefits, etc. This is all in house, too. Everyone in the union office is also a journeyman ironworker, from the president down, and elected by the members.

Don't get me wrong, I know there's some back end political bullshit, but as long as it doesn't bother or affect me (it doesn't), I don't care. If they want to send me a flyer or two during election time to tell me who they're endorsing, and that's about it (which is probably their little 'nudge nudge' without actually telling you who to vote for).

Regards,
Nick

... He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
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Re: Re: Old School
By: Accession to All on Thu Jan 09 2025 07:14 pm

There's a lot of unions that just side with the company and don't do anyting for their workers.

Sadly, things are not like they used to be.

I believe it, however, there's a huge difference between factory/shop

unions
(which can even include sitting on an assembly line packaging cheese, ffs) and construction trade unions.

Either way, this was brought up because of dues and the negativity behind them. Were any dues you ever paid ever a burden on you in your line of work? Because in any construction trade, they are basically unnoticeable.

Compare it to a financial advisor taking a small percentage from your

funds,
for taking care of your money for you. Nobody complains about that. :)

i was in the uspostal union, ups(teamsters) and a union at PPG paints(they suck bad).

no, dues were never really that much. I just had a problem with how the unions operated. teamsters you just cant trust. They are huge fucking liars.
uspostal union had no teeth because they can't strike or even negotiate. PPG held people back in progression and pay.

My mom and my god mother were big union powerhouses, I'm surprised I can't find any articles about them creating strikes. My mom was a Nurse at a nursing
home and eventually in an administration role.

But you are right. Your trade unions are unique. I would say other unions are pretty crappy in comparison. You seem to pay a shit ton for healthcare, though.

Also in states like wisconsin where it's right to work, people can't be forced to join a union so that's less people and less strength.
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I believe it, however, there's a huge difference between factory/shop unions (which can even include sitting on an assembly line packaging cheese, ffs) and
construction trade unions.

Either way, this was brought up because of dues and the negativity behind them

Actually, I made the initial comment because someone brought up learning
to do what could be considered "trade work" at adult/continuing education classes.

It was not really meant as an anti-union swipe, but I do suspect that those types of classes are frowned on by unions (and professional groups and government agencies) because someone can learn to do work without (1) being properly licensed and apprenticed, and (2) paying licensing fees or dues.

I think that is pretty much SOP so I didn't see it as a swipe.

I used to work in a shop that had two unions present. I was considered
"office staff" and was not a member of either. One of the unions seemed
very consciencious (sp?) of what they and the member employees were doing.
My experience with them gave me a better understanding and opinion of their union despite previous bad publicity.

The other one didn't seem to care about their member employees, and those employees were not always shy to tell you how they felt about that union.
OTOH, they were very happy to see the retired company HR rep (i.e.
non-union former member of "management") whenever he visited, even though
they once upon a time went on strike against the management team he was a member of. They loved him.

I had never heard of that union before I worked there, so the opinion I
formed of that particular union is not good.

Neither of them were the UAW, BTW. ;)

My point being that some of them are good for their members, and some
really are not.


* SLMR 2.1a * Who do you have to sleep with to get service around here?
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Hey Dumas!

On Fri, Jan 10 2025 14:53:00 -0600, you wrote ..

Actually, I made the initial comment because someone brought up
learning to do what could be considered "trade work" at adult/
continuing education classes.

It was not really meant as an anti-union swipe, but I do suspect

that those types of classes are frowned on by unions (and
professional groups and government agencies) because someone can
learn to do work without (1) being properly licensed and
apprenticed, and (2) paying licensing fees or dues.

I'd imagine my union (or myself personally) doesn't much care about any kind of classes you can take. What you do in the field is what makes you a good (or bad) worker. You can have as many degrees as you want, to make you smart on paper, but if you can't actually do it in the field, you're useless to me.

I think that is pretty much SOP so I didn't see it as a swipe.

I didn't either, to be honest. I just know "dues" are one of the major arguing points of anti-union people, and wanted to make it clear that dues are a very small drop in the bucket.

I had never heard of that union before I worked there, so the

opinion I formed of that particular union is not good.

Neither of them were the UAW, BTW. ;)

Maybe not, but the UAW did have a major part in starting the negativity towards unions. And what happened because of it has probably directly reflected many other shop unions, to this day.

My point being that some of them are good for their members, and

some really are not.

Agreed there. And the ones that are not may be better off not being a union, since that is the driving force behind them (looking out for their workers, etc).

Regards,
Nick

... Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
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Re: Old School
By: Accession to Dumas Walker on Sat Jan 11 2025 12:01 pm

I didn't either, to be honest. I just know "dues" are one of the major arguing points of anti-union people, and wanted to make it clear that dues are a very small drop in the bucket.

I had never heard of that union before I worked there, so the

It's a small drop in the bucket for the worker, but it's a big drop in the bucket for the union.

For instance, teamsters is going after amazon and trying to blur the line between dsps and the actual company. That's big money if they get amazon. Strange thing is, they aren't going after fedex ground and express because those are all contractors ran by hundreds of companys as well.

When people dont want unions just because of the dues, they just arent educated; just the same as people who want a union just because.
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I think that is pretty much SOP so I didn't see it as a swipe.

I didn't either, to be honest. I just know "dues" are one of the major arguing
points of anti-union people, and wanted to make it clear that dues are a very small drop in the bucket.

They are a drop in the bucket for the worker, as they should be, and they
are probably a drop in a large bucket for a successful union. The unions
that are in it for profit, though... I think they'd want that money.

I had never heard of that union before I worked there, so the

opinion I formed of that particular union is not good.

Neither of them were the UAW, BTW. ;)

Maybe not, but the UAW did have a major part in starting the negativity toward
unions. And what happened because of it has probably directly reflected many other shop unions, to this day.

No doubt. If you are old enough to remember, or had a family member in the trucking industry, the Teamsters of the late 1970s/early 1980s no doubt
also played a role.

After working around some of them in the 1990s, my opinion of them has
changed for the better.

My point being that some of them are good for their members, and

some really are not.

Agreed there. And the ones that are not may be better off not being a union, since that is the driving force behind them (looking out for their workers, etc).

Agreed.


* SLMR 2.1a * You could be reading the next message by now.
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For instance, teamsters is going after amazon and trying to blur the line between dsps and the actual company. That's big money if they get amazon. Strange thing is, they aren't going after fedex ground and express because those are all contractors ran by hundreds of companys as well.

That is a good example. If the workers want the union, that is one thing,
but when unions go after other sources of members, that is somewhat of an illustration of what I was talking about. They want those people paying
dues.


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Re: Old School
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sun Jan 12 2025 10:24 am

For instance, teamsters is going after amazon and trying to blur the line between dsps and the actual company. That's big money if they get amazon. Strange thing is, they aren't going after fedex ground and express because those are all contractors ran by hundreds of companys as well.

That is a good example. If the workers want the union, that is one

thing,
but when unions go after other sources of members, that is somewhat of an illustration of what I was talking about. They want those people paying dues.

there was already a union in jfk8 in ny and the president was some clown who just took trips with the money that was donated to the union. i dont think anybody joined and the union is broke. then teamsters stepped in.

Teamsters do this fake amazon strike that never happened. they pay their people to stand outside an amazon, they take photos and vids with signs and they go home.

Unions are a good idea for trades, but amazon, wafflehouses[saw they are trying to do a union], walmart employees, starbucks, and other mid to low skilled jobs dont need a union. infact, walmart has real good insurance, even for part
time employees. that's probably why older people are working at walmart.

The video i saw about the wafflehouse union, they were just complaining about how they get 3 bucks a day taken out for a meal. They don't need a union to stop that. just tell your boss you dont want a meal.

uspostal needs a union to handle pensions and healthcare. usps is such a poorly ran entity they need a watchdog on that. Otherwise the usps union is toothless and useless. You still have to do what you are told, even though it's breaking rules or unsafe. You then grieve it and get money.

The person i started with at usps didn't get her paycheck for over a month. most people need that money. the union didn't help her get paid.

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Teamsters do this fake amazon strike that never happened. they pay their people to stand outside an amazon, they take photos and vids with signs and they go home.

That would explain why I kept seeing things about the Amazon strike in the
news and yet did not stop seeing the delivery people out everywhere.


* SLMR 2.1a * Can bankers count? Eight windows and only four tellers?
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Re: Old School
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Mon Jan 13 2025 10:07 am

Teamsters do this fake amazon strike that never happened. they pay their people to stand outside an amazon, they take photos and vids with signs and they go home.

That would explain why I kept seeing things about the Amazon strike in the news and yet did not stop seeing the delivery people out everywhere.

they say they striked from dec20 to christmas eve. then they said over 5k people walked out. I don't believe it. I believe they walked home after doing their shift.

I know teamsters tried to strike in minnesota and it was during a snowstorm and pretty cold. They were there for a short time and left.

there's hundreds of dsps. anybody can create one if they have the starter cash and amazon handles the rest. I'm not sure how they can unionize by proxy with amazon when it's really the dsps that have the workers and pay the workers.

I shipped a pkg to newyork state and it went through jfk8 and it got to the person in the normal amount of time.
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Re: Old School
By: MRO to Dumas Walker on Mon Jan 13 2025 04:15 pm


Hello, friends!

I'm eating a nice bowl of red beans and rice, and I'm wondering if anybody has good tips for spicing up a pot. My quick/weekday recipe is to saute the holy trinity, add Cajun seasoning followed by beans, and then simmer for a few hours. Finish it off with vinegar and salt, and it's golden.


If you have non-bean-based favorites, I'd also like to hear those.



(posting this as a reply to MRO because I miss the man, and am sure he is a veritable font of culinary wisdom)

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